Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

[LowPost42]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

I find that there's a difference between an academic schedule and an athletic schedule.

Nowhere in athletics have I seen a schedule of 'you should be doing this by such and such a date'. Sure, in programmes we see what the curriculum will be, but there's no guarantee that the participants have the necessary fundamentals to even be participating.

A homegrown swing is great if you have time to grow it at home. A 30 year old man hasn't the time or lack of responsibility to home-grow a swing that'll work at the pro stage. Anybody I've ever watched at a pro level with a home grown anything has been growing it since they could stand. Even if they have some homegrown motion, they look like every other great golfer at impact.

Martin, if lessons are useless, why do pro's have coaches? Why are there coaches in every level of every sport? Because players can't see themeselves. As we all know in the golf world, feel isn't necessarily real.

But the overall theme is correct - a good coach will augment your swing for your body type; and be able to recognize what will work with each.

[bampot]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Some golf pros can be very arbitrary gents. Lessons can be beneficial, but, at the end of the day if you really want to improve, be like Hogan and dig it out of the dirt.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

I find that there's a difference between an academic schedule and an athletic schedule.

Nowhere in athletics have I seen a schedule of 'you should be doing this by such and such a date'. Sure, in programmes we see what the curriculum will be, but there's no guarantee that the participants have the necessary fundamentals to even be participating.

A homegrown swing is great if you have time to grow it at home. A 30 year old man hasn't the time or lack of responsibility to home-grow a swing that'll work at the pro stage. Anybody I've ever watched at a pro level with a home grown anything has been growing it since they could stand. Even if they have some homegrown motion, they look like every other great golfer at impact.

Martin, if lessons are useless, why do pro's have coaches? Why are there coaches in every level of every sport? Because players can't see themeselves. As we all know in the golf world, feel isn't necessarily real.

But the overall theme is correct - a good coach will augment your swing for your body type; and be able to recognize what will work with each.

There is indeed a difference between academic and athletic. We make a clear distinction by discriminating based on prior ability. We call this "looking for talent". There is no such thing as talent. The good teacher knows this. The bad teacher will be dumbfounded as to how to teach what he knows. The good teacher will know how to teach whatever he knows to whomever will listen.

There is no such thing as talent. Unless we speak of the ability to learn. Talent means innate. Well, we all have the innate ability to learn. The good teacher knows this. The bad teacher still holds on to his dear belief that we can be born with the innate ability to swing a golf club. Or skate on ice. Or throw a ball. Or lift a barbell. The good teacher knowns that the ability to learn can be further enhanced through training of its own.

It's ironic and just a little stupid. We sift through applicants to find the one with talent. We continue to do this even though we known how to train athletes. Why not train everybody and then sift through graduates? We do this in academics, why not in athletics? Because we believe there is such a thing as talent. Blindly.

We know how to teach strength training. Athletics of all kinds. Olympic disciplines and their associated training. Professional techniques such as how to use a wrench, a sledge hammer and other tools. We know how long it takes to teach this. Look at all the courses we can take for all those various techniques. We know when we'll graduate from whatever technique we choose.

On the other hand, golf is not a profession nor an Olympic discipline. It's a recreational activity. By virtue of its nature and usefulness, it deserves no formal training. It has no formal training. There is no recognized training to be had. Unless we consider the various PGA associations but then those are capitalist corporations, not academic institutions. Whatever they teach, they do so under false pretense. They can't claim to have a curriculum. All they can claim is that they can train you to make money.

Want to play hockey? No problem, we know how that works. Ski, bobsleigh, skating, whatever you want, we know how it works and we know how to teach it. Golf? Forget about it. We don't know the difference between analysis and teaching.

Certainly, were we in a different context where golf was taught in schools as part of the curriculum or as a discipline in itself, we'd be able to learn it in a set amount of time and graduate from that course with honors. Certainly, as with any other activity, golf requires practice. And like any other curriculum, practice time would be alloted as needed. And like any other activity, those with a keen sense of it will advance quicker and farther than others. But basically, golf could be taught to any willing to learn.

Alas, the context we are bound to doesn't allow golf to be taught so easily.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Martin,

If taking lessons is the worst thing we can do, what about those of us who cannot find a technique on our own that allows us to succeed at some level? Are we destined to not play golf well? Do you think that maybe lessons would be in order at this point? Your argument could go for anything in life and still not be valid. "I'll learn math myself, I'll learn to parachute on my own, etc..."

I consider myself to have good athletic abilities (baseball/softball player all my life), but yet I cannot get the golf swing down. It's apparent that I am deficient in my technique so I will turn to lessons. I can assure you, with 100% confidence, I will become a better golfer as lessons progress. Will I ever "graduate"? Who knows? But it will help me enjoy the sport all the more.

Any technique can be learned from a book. Unfortunately, golf in books in mostly junk. If golf was taught like any other technique, you and anybody else would be able to learn it quickly and easily. Even from a book. But as we can see, this is clearly not the case.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Martin,

I disagree with some of your points.

Most golf instructors will sell a basic course that teaches some fundamental underpinning to playing golf and will include stance, grip, alignment, ball position, basic swing mechanics and safety, this will be something in the region of six lessons. Beyond this they will sell you further instruction on things like pitching, chipping, putting etc etc. They will also sell you coaching sessions and it is up to the individual to determine whether they require coaching or not or whether a particular instructor is right for them. Not much different to learning any recreational or physical skill really.

Your point on how long one would graduate in a profession is not comparing apples for apples. Even when someone graduates from a profession they are not normally at their full potential, this is due to the limitation of practical application and experience which takes some time to obtain.

I would question your statement that there is a distinct advantage in golf for those that have not taken lessons. I do not have empirical data to back this but I would suggest that the vast majority of golfers have never taken lessons or at the most one or two. Most people I know in golf have not taken lessons and I believe this is one of the reasons the average handicap is still around 25/28. I find watching golf swings very interesting, most people I see swing out to in and fall back on their back foot in the downswing, this is the major contributor to fat, thin, sliced, hooked, shanked and weak shots. If most of these people could fix these two flaws then the standard of golf would improve a lot and that average handicap would tumble. As they don't seem able to fix the problem by themselves should they not seek help.

Golf instructors are like driving instructors, tennis instructors, football coaches etc, some are good, some are not so good, some will have a style that suits you some will have a style that suits others, it's horses for courses.

You know what my point of view is with practice so I will not volunteer to open that old cookie up again.

I find myself agreeing with everything you wrote.

Those with the difficulties you described, I think they should seek help. I also think they won't find the help they seek. That's why I said taking lessons is the worst thing they could do. But then again, is bad information better than no information at all? Maybe. I've gotten bad information all my life only to find what I wanted on my own. So perhaps bad information is precisely what they need so that in turn they can find what they want on their own.

[takinitdeep]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Martin, I'm sure you put alot of time into your posts; I for one really don't read long posts especially ones that just take up space and could have been reduced to a few lines.
Save yourself time and cut to the chase.
Besides, why post about teaching when you admit you don't believe in getting lessons.

I find myself agreeing with everything you wrote.

Those with the difficulties you described, I think they should seek help. I also think they won't find the help they seek. That's why I said taking lessons is the worst thing they could do. But then again, is bad information better than no information at all? Maybe. I've gotten bad information all my life only to find what I wanted on my own. So perhaps bad information is precisely what they need so that in turn they can find what they want on their own.

[Neil18]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Martin, I'm sure you put alot of time into your posts; I for one really don't read long posts........

I guess that's why not many people discuss my posts!

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi
i think martin has a point in almost every pro you go to try's to teach you to hit a golf ball straight but we know that every golf pro hits a ball with either fade or draw as even they cant hit a straight ball time after time.
i know almost 30 years ago of playing Trevino style and being told time after time that you cant play that way and i still have people telling me that today.
i know teaching has changed in the last 10 or so years and more and more pros are setting you up to draw the ball but i'm sure there are many of you out there that had lessons and told to hit the ball straight and tried to do just that an failed not knowing if the ball was going to draw or fade.
there are some very good teachers out there but there a lot of club pros that can play well but cant teach to save them selfs too.
what i do like is the number of kids that get some training up here in Scotland during the school breaks and that can only be good for golf up here as more and more youngsters are given access to golf and learning at school level and come away knowing the fundamentals and able to swing a club and hit the ball, something hardly anyone knew when i was that age in school.
i would take it its the same down in England and Wales
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

I find myself agreeing with everything you wrote.

Those with the difficulties you described, I think they should seek help. I also think they won't find the help they seek. That's why I said taking lessons is the worst thing they could do. But then again, is bad information better than no information at all? Maybe. I've gotten bad information all my life only to find what I wanted on my own. So perhaps bad information is precisely what they need so that in turn they can find what they want on their own.

Martin you say "they won't find the help they seek", I take it that is a personal opinion of yours and not necessarily based on research or fact? Can you substantiate that please as it is not an opinion of mine, I have looked for help in the past and have found it though a number of mediums, some from some very good instructors that do know how to teach, some from various books that although written in the personal style of the author have a common thread that makes a complex action understandable: Hogan, King, Dante, Bradley and more recently Joe Hagen with his brilliant 3 Skills.

As I suggested earlier most people do not find out on their own what they need to improve, they remain high handicappers with poor swings no matter how much they practice or play, they just do not understand what they should be doing. It's a bit like learning to read, someone shows you the letters and how to make the sounds, you copy, then you practice, then you get it! Give a kid a book, leave him alone and tell him to practice reading, will he do it?

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi Martin
when i fist start playing some 30 years ago, the sea hole at Musselburgh is a 175 yard par 3 and i could not reach it with a driver when i started and spent months trying to play, it was only when i read Trevino's book that i started to learn to play and start to control my shots and understand about what i was trying to do.
one thing i did lean quick was about spin and how to use it, like when using a 9 iron the backspin is strong and overpowers the side spin so the ball don't fade but on landing the side spin starts to work and stops the back spin and stops the ball spinning back. giving you a stop ball rather than a spinning ball.
i have never heard a pro teaching that but i did learn it from Trevino's book. if i want backspin then i don't open the face on my short irons but i never have control of how much spin so i i like to use side spin to stop the ball as close to where it pitches and i do that with fading a 9 iron or wedges.
cheers
bill

[takinitdeep]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Bill and Martin, you guys are way wrong here. I know, have known and currently play often with pro's and we all hit the ball straight anytime we want to. We also work the ball when its needed.
I personally prefer a straight ball flight most of the time.
Someone must have abused you with a golf club when you were young.
Get some lessons and jump miles ahead of where you are now.
Even though I don't need lessons much anymore, I still visit my pro every 3 months for a checkup. Its like getting your car in for maintenance.
Let the pro s help you and cut your learning curve by at least 75%

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi takinitdeep
i don't know of any pro that stands on the tee and try to hit a straight drive, the use there bread and butter shot and that will be a fade or a draw. you often hear of Trevino being the straightest hitter off all time and almost all were fades. Monty hits a fade and so did hogan and so on. i know if i aim up the left side then my ball was fade into the target, if i hit straight then i never know if it will fade or draw but if it does fade or draw then its away from where i aim if trying to hit straight. with shot clubs the backspin keeps it straight but with long irons and woods then i think your very wrong in trying to play to hit straight every shot and i bet you miss more than you hit straight and thats why the pros play the percentages and use a draw or fade.
ask some on the pros on here if the fade or draw there drivers or try and hit straight. i know what they will say.
cheers
bill

[Martin Levac]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Bill and Martin, you guys are way wrong here. I know, have known and currently play often with pro's and we all hit the ball straight anytime we want to. We also work the ball when its needed.
I personally prefer a straight ball flight most of the time.
Someone must have abused you with a golf club when you were young.
Get some lessons and jump miles ahead of where you are now.
Even though I don't need lessons much anymore, I still visit my pro every 3 months for a checkup. Its like getting your car in for maintenance.
Let the pro s help you and cut your learning curve by at least 75%

The real test of a teacher is not his ability to do but the ability to do of his students.

[bill reed]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

hi martin
a bit like Bob Torrance when he said "teach the player not the golf swing".
teach the player what they need to know as diffrent played need to know diffrent things.
don't teach one golf swing to all as there is not one golf swing that fits all.
cheers
bill

[mariner]

Re: Cookie-Cutter Golf Swings

Every lesson I've ever had has made me immediately worse and has never done any lasting good whatsoever, I gradually get back to a decent standard as my natural swing (however bad it may be) comes back and I forget the unnatural moves I'm supposed to be ingraining with thousands of range balls.