Release Thoughts

[BrianW]

Re: Release Thoughts

A late hit (as you call it) comes from the angle the club approaches. It is not caused from conscious rotating the arms or wrists. Look at the pictures of Immelman and Faldo they are not flipping their wrists or rotating their forearms at impact or beyond. Their forearms arms at impact and just past it are square to their bodies and the clubface.

Pros (Greg Norman, Ernie Els, Annika Sorenstam to name three) have all been asked if they think about conscious rotation of their forearms or trying to force their wrists to stay cocked, and every time they say an emphatic no.



Read page 16, 39-40, 189 of Swing like a Pro (by Ralph Mann who has a PH D. in biomechanics), in Alastair Cochran and John Stobbs Search for the Perfect Swing they showed that pro golfers (with detectors attached to them) were unable to control their forearms and wrist after the downswing was in progress. The scientific principles and tests discussed in The Physics of Golf, Newton on the Tee, See and Feel the Inside Move the Outside (page 38, 136-138 for example).
According to studies done by Ralph Mann, Jim Suttie, and as reported by Michael Hebron on page 136 of his book "Reseach showed any attempt to control impact is futile, arms and wrists are not strong enough to control the speeding clubhead."

Those are just a few of the many studies that have been done on the subject. There is a ton of scientific evidence (including studies with electrodes attached to pro golfers) to support the hypothesis that the arms and wrists can not and should not be (or attempted to be) controlled. If you make an effort to look for and read those studies you'll find there are many of them, and they are well supported by other studies.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2...ndfaldoqm5.jpg

Why have you inserted the "Big Grin Smiley"? that's somewhat juvenile and patronising. And why do you keep inserting those pictures, they prove nothing.

I started a response to your post but I think you have convinced yourself there can be no other viewpoint so I will not bother.

[kbp]

Re: Release Thoughts

Avid - Welcome. Thanks for the discussion.

If you swing the arms, but don't turn the shoulders or torso the arms will rotate like you are describing. While that is one way to swing a club I think it lacks the ability to produce power the way one that involves the rotation of the shoulders and torso does.
David Leadbetter, Rick Smith, Nick Faldo, and Nick Price have all said that club face rotation at the 8 clock position and hip high position is an optical illusion based on your spine tilt and where your head and eyes are positioned. They have each said if you step around to face the club in that position (without moving the club from its position) you will find that it is square to your body still (just like it was at address). I have also heard that the optical illusion is a result of the club swinging on an arc or semi circle. (The club head swinging on a large semi circle path while the grip end swings on a mini semi circle. Rick Smith has illustrated this better than any other instructor I know).

This is basically correct and it's also what a lot of people fail to realize about the "opening" and "closing" of the clubface. As long as the club is centered between your shoulders, the face is (basically) perpendicular to the shoulders. As the shoulders turn away from the target in the backswing, the clubface also turns away from the target and "opens" relative to the target line. The foreams are not required to "roll" much at all to allow this. When the shoulders return to parallel to the target line, at impact, the club face is still perpendicular to the shoulders and has thus "closed" to square relative to the target line.

To illustrate, do the old drill where you address the ball and then pick the club head up and rest the shaft on your back shoulder. Then turn the shoulders 90 degrees in the backswing direction. Push the hands up and away into a top of backswing position. No deliberate forearm rotation required. Same thing if you turn and lift simultaneously as in a normal integrated backswing motion.

The forearms are only required to "roll" open or "roll" closed when the club gets ahead or behind the center of the shoulders. As Avid points out, the arm swing without shoulder rotation is the classic example. Take the club back to the top, as best you can, without any shoulder rotation. The forearms are forced to rotate "open" on the backswing as the club gets outside the shoulders and must similarly rotate "closed" on the downswing and follow through.

These are two extremes. The opening and closing of the club in an individuals swing falls somewhere in between absolute pure shoulder rotation and pure forearm rolling depending on the lead/lag of the club relative to the shoulders. Yes, the club must open and close relative to the target line, but this is the nature of swinging on an arc.

[Neil18]

Re: Release Thoughts

Well played Kbp, well played.

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Release Thoughts

Hello All:

It always amuses me how a simple question about a GAME we all supposedly ENJOY can turn into a series of accusations, name calling and general impolite behaviour. Not in keeping with the intent of this website nor the spirit of golf.

Anyway back to my original post the release is clearly a subject for some debate. Here are my observations based on simple trial and error with my swing.

1) The arms and wrists do not cross over in the sense that they would be twisted as if wringing a towel. However a crucial point is that the hands move from a position where the left is on top of the right hand to the right being on top of the left during the release. So in effect the hands, wrists and arms form the letter x just after inmpact.

2) It is possible to control the club face through impact by differing actions of the hands and wrists. If I hold my left wrist cupped through impact which although incorrect, is very easy to do, I end up placing right sidespin on the ball. If I allow the left wrist to supinate (or roll slighty) though impact as I am doing now, my shots are much straighter with less sidespin. This did not take long to learn how to do (literally just a few swings) but it was a matter of understanding the difference between pronating and supinating. Pronating my left wrist was robbing me of distance and accuracy and supinating is working wonders. This is a slight, and to most handicap golfers an unknown quantity in how the swing works. I am not saying that supinating is right or wrong but it is a controlled action that I am purposely programming into my entire swing, not a last moment twist of the hands to create the supination. It is a gradual rolling of the left wrist from about hip height in the downswing to hip height in the follow through.

3) As stated in my original post, the photos I see of pros in the early follow through position where the shaft is parallel to the ground from face on have this crossed over position of the hands and the toe of the club head is pointing up. I believe this may be the most vital of the "still action" positions because it reveals the full release of the club head.

4) How golfers achieve the correct positions to execute good shots is very personal and some may feel that they need to manipulate the hands more than others. Some claim to use a total body release but In my opinion the release as with the entire swing, is a combination of well syncronized movements by every part of the anatomy. How we decide to break this complex action down is what makes golf the idiosyncratic (not to be confused with idiots) and perplexing game that it is. Feel is not always real and it's not my way or the highway. It's a matter of whatever method works.

5) For me it was a matter of hitting frustrating shots, hating it and wanting to figure out why this was happening. So I broke down the simple fundamentals of physics as it applies to golf and quickly came to the conclusion that my face was open at impact. From there it was research, testing, practice and solution. This lead me to a better understanding of my actions in the swing. It is possible that when I was hitting it well before, I was supinating and creating solid impact conditions by good fortune. I certainly would not have known if I was doing it correctly or incorrectly because I was blissfully unaware of the process. Unfortunatley that unawareness will turn on you in golf.

[BrianW]

Re: Release Thoughts

Tim,

Thanks for the well considered post, I agree entirely with your comments.

I have become very interested in the 3 skills techniques and skill 3 regards moving the clubface from an open position before impact to a closed position after to produce effortless power. It does not tell you how to do this but asks you to focus on the path of the clubface to achieve it. When I considered it I can only do this with a pronation and supination of the wrists through impact.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Release Thoughts

Hello All:

Anyway back to my original post the release is clearly a subject for some debate. Here are my observations based on simple trial and error with my swing.

1) The arms and wrists do not cross over in the sense that they would be twisted as if wringing a towel. However a crucial point is that the hands move from a position where the left is on top of the right hand to the right being on top of the left during the release. So in effect the hands, wrists and arms form the letter x just after inmpact.

3) As stated in my original post, the photos I see of pros in the early follow through position where the shaft is parallel to the ground from face on have this crossed over position of the hands and the toe of the club head is pointing up. I believe this may be the most vital of the "still action" positions because it reveals the full release of the club head.

I do not believe the face on view is the best angle to observe release from (just as it is not the best angle to examine wrist hinge on the downswing). Swing Like a Pro / Fundamentals of a Model Swing (cd) studied from a biomechanics viewpoint, and video from above pro golfers. Below are images that show that the arms do not cross over in the X fashion you described.

2) It is possible to control the club face through impact by differing actions of the hands and wrists. If I hold my left wrist cupped through impact which although incorrect, is very easy to do, I end up placing right sidespin on the ball. If I allow the left wrist to supinate (or roll slighty) though impact as I am doing now, my shots are much straighter with less sidespin. This did not take long to learn how to do (literally just a few swings) but it was a matter of understanding the difference between pronating and supinating. I am not saying that supinating is right or wrong but it is a controlled action that I am purposely programming into my entire swing, not a last moment twist of the hands to create the supination. It is a gradual rolling of the left wrist from about hip height in the downswing to hip height in the follow through.

You do not need to roll your wrists to reach the position you described, and attempting to do so will cost you consistency and accuracy (it would require precise timing to repeat with consistency). As Bobby Jones stated your left hand grip will be the determining factor in the position your hands reach at impact. Bobby Jones said pictures of him and Harry Vardon illistrated that point very well. Jones said having a strong left hand grip (with his left hand more on top of the club at setup) resulted in his hands/wrists being ahead of the clubhead at impact (the position Hogan liked and you mentioned), and Vardon who had a weak left hand grip arrived with his hands even with or behind the clubhead at impact.

Model Pro top view:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8...wingtopno9.jpg

Model Pro picture downline:

(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3420/follow5akq2.jpg)


Charles Howell III post impact:

(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5...timpactvs5.jpg)

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Release Thoughts

Hello All:

Avid Golfer that is a great post and I am a big fan of the Swing Like a Pro instructional book. The section on the transition is one of the most well written pieces of golf instruction in my opinion.

As to the cross over phenominum, I agree that the arms do not literaly cross or get twisted over one another but the left hand goes from a position on top of the right at set up to the opposite through the follow through. When this happens is part of the individuals swing style. To refer to the Charles Howell photo his release looks great but if there was a photo when the club is parallel to the ground then clearly the hands would look like the ananomous golfer used in the example ie. the back of the right hand visible and the palm of the left (my idea of the cross over). This being said, the position of Howells shaft in the photo to when it would reach parallel would be a millisecond so this supinating action is taking place throughout the entire downswing. No it is not a split second hand action at impact but more of a continual rotation of the clubhead as the shaft is moving through the ball.

The cupped wrist phenominum or the scoop is often atributed to a tight grip or trying to steer the ball but I believe it is a lack of understanding of the supinating process. To achieve the flat left wrist at impact some rotation of the arms and wrists occurs. If you have the flat left wrist at the top of the backswing it will require less wrist manipulation. As you know, many hadicap golfers do not get the wrist flat so more wrist supination is required. This is why the slice is the major problem. Cupped at the top, no supination (or flattening of the left wrist) coming down leaves a cupped wrist at impact, an open club face and slices. Then the player has to swing outside in as far as the path and then this opens a host of new issues.

Achieving the flat left wrist at impact is key as well as the toe up position when the shaft is parallel in the follow through. There is some hand and wrist action taking place is this process in my opinion.

[BrianW]

Re: Release Thoughts

This picture of Ernie Els seems to suggest that his wrists have crossed over after impact in much the way the article suggests is a fault?

[kbp]

Re: Release Thoughts

You will notice that Ernie’s shoulders are rotated past parallel to the target line. If he were to hold his arms as they are and rotate his shoulders back to parallel with the target line, you would not see his arms are not really that severely crossed. Likewise, if you were to leave him as he is in the picture and walk around to the front of him a bit, where you were viewing him perpendicular to his shoulders, his hand would not appear so severely crossed.

[BrianW]

Re: Release Thoughts

You will notice that Ernie’s shoulders are rotated past parallel to the target line. If he were to hold his arms as they are and rotate his shoulders back to parallel with the target line, you would not see his arms are not really that severely crossed. Likewise, if you were to leave him as he is in the picture and walk around to the front of him a bit, where you were viewing him perpendicular to his shoulders, his hand would not appear so severely crossed.

The model golfer in the picture seems to be rotated the same to me? His shoulders are past parallel and his arm positions seem identical.

[kbp]

Re: Release Thoughts

Take it up with Avid....it’s his model, not mine.

My point is that relative to the shoulders, the arms don’t really cross as much as they appear. The degree of forearm or wrist rotation (or apparent "crossover") at any particular point in the swing is dependant on the strength of the grip and how much lag/lead a person’s swing has between the shoulders and the club.

[BrianW]

Re: Release Thoughts

Take it up with Avid....it’s his model, not mine.

My point is that relative to the shoulders, the arms don’t really cross as much as they appear. The degree of forearm or wrist rotation (or apparent "crossover") at any particular point in the swing is dependant on the strength of the grip and how much lag/lead a person’s swing has between the shoulders and the club.

Sorry, I thought you were debating my post with Ernie's picture?

[Neil18]

Re: Release Thoughts

The model golfer in the picture seems to be rotated the same to me? His shoulders are past parallel and his arm positions seem identical.

Hey Bri,

Upon closer inspection the "faulty" model golfer is forcing the issue. His shoulder and trunk aren't rotated like Ernie. The model has actually pushed his right shoulder forward of his natural shoulder line to get through the ball.

Although a small difference, you can also not see nearly as much of the gloved hand in Ernie's picture as you can in the model. Plus, Ernie is further through his swing than the model. If Ernie's shaft was in the same position as the model, you'd see even less of Ernie's gloved hand than the models.

The model "faulty" golfer is getting his right shoulder into the shot rather than turning through it. If he rotated better, he'd have less need to push his right shoulder through the shot, and hence he wouldn't need as much hand action to meet the ball, which is why he's crossed his hands so much.

[kbp]

Re: Release Thoughts

Sorry, I thought you were debating my post with Ernie's picture?

No, just trying to make a general point about the deceptive nature of apparent wrist "crossing".

[Timothy Slaught]

Re: Release Thoughts

Hello All:

Brian, I was looking at another photo of Ernie Els in the Jeff Mann swing anaylsis available on this site (good stuff) and there is a shot where in his release Ernies hands are definitely crossed over. Now, he may have been trying to hit a draw in this shot, we won't know, but the photo clearly shows a cross over of the hands and wrisis. Now again this is happeneing at milliseconds in time so the cross over does not last long. In fact by the time the shoulders and arms release further, the cross over goes away into the follow through.

In my own game, I am trying to focus on the position of the shaft and clubhead at parallel to the ground in the follow through. I want the club head pointed up as a result of my release. Obviously, I also want open hips and good extension but my focus in on rotating the clubface square along my swing arc. By focusing on this I am more concerned with my club position past impact where previously I was focused too much at impact. This is helping me swing through the ball as opposed to at it which has always been an issue. I program, in my mind, the toe up position in the follow through with an emphasis on crossing my wrists (not like a pretzel ) but with the right on top of the left.

The results have been good since I am making solid contact and am able to start my ball on line and hold it there with the proper amount of draw spin. I have a ways to go but I'm seeing immediate improvement so I'm pleased.

Thanks for the responses.
Tim S