Wrist Cock ?????

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

I see flaws with the logic, examples, and explanation with the article you copied and pasted. Like Neil18 I don't agree with the statement made that said power comes from the rotation of the arms (and many of the other faulty statements from the copy/paste above), but I will not get into that here. Getting back to the subjects of power generation and the wrists role in the golf swing.

I agree that wrist cock as defined by you and whom ever you copy and pasted does not produce power, but I do believe wrist hinge (the folding back of the right wrist in the waiter/tray position) as talked about by Nick Faldo in Golf the Winning Formula is responsible for storing and retaining power generated by the other parts of the body. Similar to how the flex of back knee (right knee for right handed golfers) and resistance in the legs prevent power loss and leakage.

Biomechanics, physics, kinesthetics, and anatomy have suggested that the big muscles of the body are the power generators. Electrodes that have been attached to golfers to monitor muscle activity tend to support that premise.

If the right wrist has not hinged, or does not retain its hinge as the swing starts down (as it is described by Faldo) then the angle of attack, body, and club are susceptible to gravity, centripetal force, and drag that will reduce and drain potential power and clubhead speed at impact.

Many pro golfers have said that said the big muscles generate the most power while the little muscles generating very little (if any) power. Steve Elkington for example makes an analogy between a golfers body and a space shuttle. Here is a small excerpt from page 60 of his Five Fundamentals book:

"The golfers body could be compared to the space shuttle. The shuttle launch vehicle is a big machine with three main components. The first and most powerful stage, the main booster rocket, is analogous to the golfer's trunk. The secondary booster is the arms. At the top is the orbiter itself, which is the lightest and least powerful part but has the most maneuverability and importance. The shuttle is the wrists, of course."

The supporting article was pasted in, I thought I had made that clear? My OP was not to debate whether the rotation of the wrists was the main power source but whether cocking and uncocking of the wrists was necessary.

[RiverKing]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

Sorry Brian, I'm afraid I'm not sold either.... It seems to me that it would be much harder to perfectly time a wrist rotation than a simple wrist cock release downward.

Also, once I'm set in the dinner plate position I feel like I am releasing my wrist cock in line with the swing path, like a hammer.... down the swing path, no adjusting at all. The uncocking of the wrists down that target line naturally causes my hands to rotate and square the clubface without my having to think about rotating through impact.

I remember seeing a slow-mo of Tiger's hands just before impact, and it seemed like he did the same thing (although infinitely better than me of course...) as he released the wrist lag or cock the back of his hand just naturally squared up to the target.

[Started2k3]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

The supporting article was pasted in, I thought I had made that clear? My OP was not to debate whether the rotation of the wrists was the main power source but whether cocking and uncocking of the wrists was necessary.

In the picture you posted earlier, the golfer has up and down wrist cock.

If his wrists were in the uncocked position then the clubhead would be in line with the lead elbow - hand (shaft would be right behind the back foot).

If the hands move the same amount of distance to get to impact over the same time frame, then in your model the clubhead would travel only half the distance for the same amount of time ... simple physics says that your model is slower.

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

In the picture you posted earlier, the golfer has up and down wrist cock.

If his wrists were in the uncocked position then the clubhead would be in line with the lead elbow - hand (shaft would be right behind the back foot).

If the hands move the same amount of distance to get to impact over the same time frame, then in your model the clubhead would travel only half the distance for the same amount of time ... simple physics says that your model is slower.

I am feeling that I have not communicated my thoughts well.

When at address the wrists will have some wrists cock, the wrists naturally form an angle of around 45 deg. What I was trying to suggest (Not very effectively it seems) that this angle can be maintained through the swing and should not alter by any large amount.

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

Sorry Brian, I'm afraid I'm not sold either.... It seems to me that it would be much harder to perfectly time a wrist rotation than a simple wrist cock release downward.

Also, once I'm set in the dinner plate position I feel like I am releasing my wrist cock in line with the swing path, like a hammer.... down the swing path, no adjusting at all. The uncocking of the wrists down that target line naturally causes my hands to rotate and square the clubface without my having to think about rotating through impact.

I remember seeing a slow-mo of Tiger's hands just before impact, and it seemed like he did the same thing (although infinitely better than me of course...) as he released the wrist lag or cock the back of his hand just naturally squared up to the target.

Please can you explain to me how a downward wrist release works? As I see it the direction of movement is at 90 deg to the direction of the clubface and I cannot see what it will do.

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

I am feeling that I have not communicated my thoughts well.

When at address the wrists will have some wrists cock, the wrists naturally form an angle of around 45 deg. What I was trying to suggest (Not very effectively it seems) that this angle can be maintained through the swing and should not alter by any large amount.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. The wrist angle you are referring to is the angle created by the left hand and arm (shown by the purple hand and arm in the picture below)? If I understand you correctly, you are also advocating attempting to maintain the angle formed by the left wrist at address during the swing and at impact?


(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5127/grip11nq0.jpg)

I do not believe that trying to maintain that angle is of benefit (if even scientifically possible). Centripetal force and changing positions of body parts during the swing would make maintaining that angle difficult (once again if possible). Additionally the muscles of the wrists are small and relatively weak. Attempting to move those muscles in ways counter to physics and the larger muscles may result in wrist injuries. Finally as noted before you don't see the vast majority of pros having their left wrist angles the same at setup and impact (wrist angle being linked with the more vertical shaft angle at impact).

[kbp]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

Thanks for the input.
If I understand you correctly you agree?

No, I believe we actually disagree.

I do NOT believe forearm rolling and/or clubface closing is a large source of power or speed in the swing.

I DO believe that wrist cocking up and down is necessary to deliver the maximum amount of speed in the golf swing. As I explained, becuase of the orientation of the wrists during the downswing, this action occurs mostly "on plane", before the wrists are back to square.

Maybe I’m missing your point.

[Started2k3]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

I am feeling that I have not communicated my thoughts well.

When at address the wrists will have some wrists cock, the wrists naturally form an angle of around 45 deg. What I was trying to suggest (Not very effectively it seems) that this angle can be maintained through the swing and should not alter by any large amount.

Ok I get you now. Yeah ... hmmm ... my suggestion ... don't do that.

Swing speed will be reduced:
(1) COAM see previous link and try to understand what the physics is saying ... or put another way energy efficiency comparison between a catapult (you) and trebuchet (me).
(2) You will need to have a slow swing with a very smooth transition to keep your wrist that rigid.

Good luck.
Charles

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

This article is a little off the point but has some opinion on wrist cock:

http://blogs.inquirer.net/golfdigest...nd-your-wrist/

[jambalaya]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

I’d like to join the polite debate.

True, the direction of the wrist cock is perpendicular to the plane at address and impact because the hands are basically perpendicular to the plane at address and impact. However, as the shoulders rotate back and forth through 90 degrees, so do the hands. At the top of the swing, the direction of the wrist cock is parallel to the plane. The wrist stay basically parallel to the plane through most of the downswing. As they approach the ball, the hands come inside the club head plane and rotate back to square.

That lines up with my understanding. There would seem to be some stored energy there that would release onto the plane. That is if we have our wrists and hands positioned properly at the top. I couldn't for the longest time understand the upward wrist cock as regards adding lag or power.

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

Ok I get you now. Yeah ... hmmm ... my suggestion ... don't do that.

Swing speed will be reduced:
(1) COAM see previous link and try to understand what the physics is saying ... or put another way energy efficiency comparison between a catapult (you) and trebuchet (me).
(2) You will need to have a slow swing with a very smooth transition to keep your wrist that rigid.

Good luck.
Charles

I do understand COAM but fail to see the relationship it has with up and down hinging, rotational yes!

The wrists don't need to be rigid, I didn't say that!

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

Let me see if I understand you correctly. The wrist angle you are referring to is the angle created by the left hand and arm (shown by the purple hand and arm in the picture below)? If I understand you correctly, you are also advocating attempting to maintain the angle formed by the left wrist at address during the swing and at impact?


(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5127/grip11nq0.jpg)

I do not believe that trying to maintain that angle is of benefit (if even scientifically possible). Centripetal force and changing positions of body parts during the swing would make maintaining that angle difficult (once again if possible). Additionally the muscles of the wrists are small and relatively weak. Attempting to move those muscles in ways counter to physics and the larger muscles may result in wrist injuries. Finally as noted before you don't see the vast majority of pros having their left wrist angles the same at setup and impact (wrist angle being linked with the more vertical shaft angle at impact).

Yes, that's it. I am not saying it should be so rigid that there is no movement at all, I am rather suggesting the movement does not need to be much and as it moves at right angles to the direction of the clubface it is not a power generator. Keeping this movement small also keeps the club more on plane, any large angular change will need to be put back in the downswing to bring the clubface back to the ball.

[Started2k3]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

I do understand COAM but fail to see the relationship it has with up and down hinging, rotational yes!

Up is a relative term. IMO, in the golf swing it does not relate to UP and DOWN as determined by gravity, but:
UP - abduction
DOWN - adduction
see attached attached gifs

Your hand-wrist-forearm can now rotate to whatever relative position they want to, but this still allows for the relative UP and DOWN movements ... on plane with the swing.

The COAM that is described in the link I attached earlier shows that although the TOTAL angular momentum of arms and club are the same for both pendulums. However, there is the opportunity to achieve a higher velocity when you can shift from a shorter distance between clubhead and pivot point to a longer one because of a transition period. If you release too early (casting) then you use up this opportunity too early. Too late and the clubhead might not make it to the ball in time.

The wrists don't need to be rigid, I didn't say that!

Yes you did. When you said, "When at address the wrists will have some wrists cock, the wrists naturally form an angle of around 45 deg. What I was trying to suggest (Not very effectively it seems) that this angle can be maintained through the swing and should not alter by any large amount."

This tells me keep the 45° angle through the swing. So NO UP-DOWN movement.

I think you said earler that there should be no flipping of the hand ... correct me if I am wrong.

So all you are doing is rotating the forearms-wrists-hands ... right?

[BrianW]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

Up is a relative term. IMO, in the golf swing it does not relate to UP and DOWN as determined by gravity, but:
UP - abduction
DOWN - adduction
see attached attached gifs

Your hand-wrist-forearm can now rotate to whatever relative position they want to, but this still allows for the relative UP and DOWN movements ... on plane with the swing.

The COAM that is described in the link I attached earlier shows that although the TOTAL angular momentum of arms and club are the same for both pendulums. However, there is the opportunity to achieve a higher velocity when you can shift from a shorter distance between clubhead and pivot point to a longer one because of a transition period. If you release too early (casting) then you use up this opportunity too early. Too late and the clubhead might not make it to the ball in time.



Yes you did. When you said, "When at address the wrists will have some wrists cock, the wrists naturally form an angle of around 45 deg. What I was trying to suggest (Not very effectively it seems) that this angle can be maintained through the swing and should not alter by any large amount."

This tells me keep the 45° angle through the swing. So NO UP-DOWN movement.

I think you said earler that there should be no flipping of the hand ... correct me if I am wrong.

So all you are doing is rotating the forearms-wrists-hands ... right?

I said they should not alter by any large amount, not stay rigid. And yes, there should be no fliping of the hands.

In the backswing the wrists have to rotate back to keep the clubface under the swing plane, in the downswing they are rotated back to square the face back to the ball, this is the rotation I mean and happens in all proper swings. How late you rotate back square affects how long the club remains behind the hands.

[Started2k3]

Re: Wrist Cock ?????

I said they should not alter by any large amount, not stay rigid. And yes, there should be no fliping of the hands.

In the backswing the wrists have to rotate back to keep the clubface under the swing plane, in the downswing they are rotated back to square the face back to the ball, this is the rotation I mean and happens in all proper swings. How late you rotate back square affects how long the club remains behind the hands.

Just because I am thick:
-no flipping,
-hands rotate back on the backswing and forward through impact and into the follow through, and
-no abduction or adduction (up and down) of the wrists.

Is that what you are saying?