Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Wrist Cock ?????

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Wrist Cock ?????

    I often hear or read things relating to golf that I find hard to reconcile in my mind, some of these things are taken as almost sacrosanct and come from some of the greats in the sport so one tends to accept them on face value, even though they are misleading or completely wrong.

    Some examples:

    To get the ball in the air it has to be trapped between the clubface and the ground.

    Ball spin is created by the grooves on the club face.

    Recently I have been considering another that is so wide spread I keep thinking I must be wrong but the more I consider it I cannot see that I am. This misconception is that the wrists have to be cocked or hinged up and down to generate power in the shot. The more I consider this issue the more convinced I become that it is incorrect and a cause of inconsistency in the swing.

    Something that has triggered this with me recently were some discussions here relating the difference in the shaft plane some tour golfers had at address and impact, I now think this is due to wrist cock.

    Feel free to enter into polite debate on this subject as I have come to the conclusion that wrist cocking should be avoided in the swing and the pronation/supination of the wrists are the source of power we should be using, although I am open to considering any contrary opinions.

    Please read the following article that supports my thinking:

    http://www.targetputting.com/golftip20066.html

    Every golfer wants to hit the ball straight every time. It sure would save a lot of strokes and make the day more pleasant, wouldn't it?
    But one thing that most amateurs do, or overdo, keeps them from hitting the ball consistently.
    I'm talking about "wrist cock". Most high and mid handicappers severely overdo this wrist cock thinking it will lead to power.
    Instead, it throws the clubhead off line and forces the golfer to make compensations in the downswing to get it back on line.
    At address, the bottom of the left hand and the left forearm create an angle. The angle is different for everybody, but everybody has one. Average is probably about 30 degrees.
    At the top of the backswing, this angle has disappeared. The line formed by the left hand and forearm has become straight, or in many cases the angle has actually reversed. This effect is know as wrist cock.
    There are many different theories as to whether you cock your wrist early in the swing, or later. You shouldn't worry about it.
    Some would argue that power comes from the wrist cock and to reduce or eliminate it would reduce your power. How much power does it really generate?
    To prove to yourself what the wrist cock actually accomplishes in the golf swing, take your normal address position. Then, eliminate the angle formed by the left hand and forearm by picking up the clubhead. What have you just done?
    It should be obvious that you have just thrown the clubhead significantly off the line you are trying to swing it on.
    When you attempt to swing a golf club down a certain path, how much sense does it make to allow the club head to stray from that path at any point in the swing? Especially by three or more feet!
    If your timing is great, you may be able to readjust and get it back on line before you get to the ball. But for most of us mere mortals, we are at best inconsistent at getting there.
    Yanking the clubhead off the proper swing path by cocking the wrist, thus eliminating the angle formed by the left wrist and forearm, is the cause of many errant shots.
    The wrist cocking action takes the clubhead off the line you trying to swing on. If you want to hit the ball solidly and consistently straight, you should keep the clubhead on line.
    You do this by preserving the angle formed by the left hand and forearm as much as possible throughout the swing. It is much easier to keep this angle intact than it is to eliminate it on the backswing then recreate it exactly on the downswing.
    But what about power? Ask yourself, how much power is being generated by the act of returning the club to the correct line?
    As you re-form the wrist/forearm angle the club has to travel in effectively a sideways path.
    If you want to see how much power is generated in re-establishing this angle, go back to the above example of eliminating the wrist/forearm angle at address. Reestablish that angle while maintaining the address position by lowering the golf club.
    The elimination and reset of the angle only adds sideways momentum to the clubhead relative to the line of the shot. It does not in any way affect the forward momentum of the club on the downswing.
    Therefore, it can have absolutely no effect on the amount of clubhead speed and power that gets to the ball.
    The power comes from the rotation and forward swinging of the arms. The "wrist cock" has nothing to do with generating power.
    Instead, it puts the golfer in a situation that requires them to make an adjustment of three feet or more to the path of the club on the backswing. That requires the same adjustment on the downswing to get the club back on line. Ever wonder why golf is so hard?
    The better you are able to preserve a little bit of left wrist/forearm angle throughout the golf swing, the straighter you will hit the ball.
    You don't need to be stiff about it, though. Just remember that the more of that angle you lose, the bigger the compensation it will require on the downswing.
    Last edited by BrianW; 01-28-2008, 07:03 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Wrist Cock ?????

    Hello Brian!

    Not too sure about this one.

    If I'm reading it correctly, it is talking about conserving the angle formed at address between what might be referred to as the "blade" of the left hand (the bit you'd do a karate chop with) and the corresponding leading edge of the forarm.

    I understand the necessity to have no forward push of the right hand leading to caving the left wrist through impact and hence throwing the club outside the line I also understand releasing the wrists in a downwards fashion (like you'd point your toes) but I balk at the idea that the COAM resulting from the correct wrist cock in the backswing and downswing doesn't lead to extra power. I also laughed out loud (sorry!) at this comment:

    The power comes from the rotation and forward swinging of the arms. The "wrist cock" has nothing to do with generating power.

    Power does not come from rotation alone. Rotation accounts for roughly 2% of the speed provided in a 110mph swing. Power does not solely come from rotation + the forward swinging of the arms. Both of these supply a portion of the power that is being fed down into the clubhead naturally. The only way this can happen and create a maximum speed at the right point is to have COAM provided by the correct wrist cock and release.

    It's physics isn't it? We just have to allow physics to work for us.

    Not cocking your wrists in the traditional sense during the backswing (which is how I've interpreted this excerpt at first glance) is veering toward the barmy side of instruction for full shots.

    Have I read it wrong?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Wrist Cock ?????

      If I was going towards the conventional swing this year, I'd say Shawn Clement has wrist cock explained just about right:

      http://youtube.com/watch?v=26AGdRWxfYk

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Wrist Cock ?????

        Just to be clear ... that would not be my definition of wrist cock ... see Greg's RHD.

        The thing that the article is missing is that the angle between the back of the left hand and forearm at address NEEDS to be eliminated before and during impact because it is there to compensate for the shoulders being in a different position at impact. If the shoulders rotate properly AND this wrist angle is still present then the clubface will be open to the target ... so fade to slice is the result.

        Hogan tried to retain some of this angle (his "secret") but this was to make sure that he could not hook the ball. This probably moved his missed shot to a fade or push.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Wrist Cock ?????

          Originally posted by Neil18 View Post
          Hello Brian!

          Not too sure about this one.

          If I'm reading it correctly, it is talking about conserving the angle formed at address between what might be referred to as the "blade" of the left hand (the bit you'd do a karate chop with) and the corresponding leading edge of the forearm.

          I understand the necessity to have no forward push of the right hand leading to caving the left wrist through impact and hence throwing the club outside the line I also understand releasing the wrists in a downwards fashion (like you'd point your toes) but I balk at the idea that the COAM resulting from the correct wrist cock in the backswing and downswing doesn't lead to extra power. I also laughed out loud (sorry!) at this comment:

          The power comes from the rotation and forward swinging of the arms. The "wrist cock" has nothing to do with generating power.

          Power does not come from rotation alone. Rotation accounts for roughly 2% of the speed provided in a 110mph swing. Power does not solely come from rotation + the forward swinging of the arms. Both of these supply a portion of the power that is being fed down into the clubhead naturally. The only way this can happen and create a maximum speed at the right point is to have COAM provided by the correct wrist cock and release.

          It's physics isn't it? We just have to allow physics to work for us.

          Not cocking your wrists in the traditional sense during the backswing (which is how I've interpreted this excerpt at first glance) is veering toward the barmy side of instruction for full shots.

          Have I read it wrong?
          Neil,

          You are correct that its just physics but just consider what has been said a little more. The clubface moves away from and back to the ball on a circular path, to increase clubhead velocity it needs to have force applied in the direction of the swingpath. Hinging and unhinging the wrists in an up and down direction applies force at right angles to the swingpath, how can this increase headspeed?

          COAM does transfer momentum from the body core through the shoulders, the arms, the wrists, the clubshaft to the clubhead just like a bicycle wheel transfers it from the hub to the spokes to the rim. It does not transfer it through the cocking and uncocking of the wrists though.

          Try this: Address a mid iron, allow your hands to swing back so they are in line with your right thigh, now rotate your wrists and forearms to the right so the butt of the club points towards the target., this is the ideal position the club should be at in the downswing just prior to impact (OK, your weight will be more on your left leg and your hips will have rotated) The power move in the swing will happen as the clubface is whipped back through the ball from here and this is done by the supination of the left wrist assisted by the effects of COAM.

          Look at the picture below and consider that the club is traveling on an arc that is naturally lowering it to the ball, what will a downward hinging motion do here? Power will be generated as the wrists and forearms rotate.

          Last edited by BrianW; 01-28-2008, 03:11 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Wrist Cock ?????

            Originally posted by Started2k3 View Post
            Just to be clear ... that would not be my definition of wrist cock ... see Greg's RHD.

            The thing that the article is missing is that the angle between the back of the left hand and forearm at address NEEDS to be eliminated before and during impact because it is there to compensate for the shoulders being in a different position at impact. If the shoulders rotate properly AND this wrist angle is still present then the clubface will be open to the target ... so fade to slice is the result.

            Hogan tried to retain some of this angle (his "secret") but this was to make sure that he could not hook the ball. This probably moved his missed shot to a fade or push.
            I know Greg's right hand drill keeps the wrists set so it needs the shoulders to rotate forward at impact but that is not the way a conventional swing works, the shoulders will face in the same direction at impact as at address.

            I think you have misread the angle I refer to, it is the angle set between the bottom edge of the left hand and the forearm, not the back of the left hand.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Wrist Cock ?????

              The terminology in golf sucks ... where wrist cock can have 18,000,000 different definitions.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Wrist Cock ?????

                You might want to read this on COAM.

                http://www.angelfire.com/realm/moeto..._Kelley_1.html

                Figures 2a & 2b are no hinge .
                Figures 3a & 3b are include up and down hinge (Greg's up and down).

                Physics says faster.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Wrist Cock ?????

                  Originally posted by Started2k3 View Post
                  You might want to read this on COAM.

                  http://www.angelfire.com/realm/moeto..._Kelley_1.html

                  Figures 2a & 2b are no hinge .
                  Figures 3a & 3b are include up and down hinge (Greg's up and down).

                  Physics says faster.
                  That's not what I mean. I am not saying that the arm and clubshaft should be in a straight line, the wrists form a natural cocked angle at address, this angle should be maintained and not increased or decreased. What does change is the rotation of the forearms and wrists and it is this that generates the release and clubhead speed. The model in your attachment is 2 dimentional and only representing X & Y translations, if a Z translation is considered then my explanation applies.

                  Just consider throwing a golf ball with your right hand in a powerful under arm right handed throw. You would take your arm back, let your hand and forearm pronate backwards then throw your arm forward and allow your wrist to supinate forwards to generate power. You would not consider cocking your wrists up and down.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Wrist Cock ?????

                    I do apoligise I'm having a fuzzy day and I have a headache but I'm not quite getting all of this.

                    When I cock my wrists in the backswing I aim to do so in precisely that manner. Back. I don't cock my wrists up. Cocking them up would indeed take the clubhead away from its' desired path and (with me) leads to a cupped left wrist at the top. Ugh!

                    My wrist cock sees the back of my right hand go towards my right forearm. That, to me, is not cocking my wrists up, but cocking them back.

                    I guess (because it happens too quick to even warrant trying to think about it) that when I do it right, the clubhead is released in a circle, I have no forward flipping of my right hand and the clubhead stays on the intended arc, pulling my wrists and arms straight after impact.

                    Are we talking about how we cock our wrists leading to how we release?

                    I dunno.

                    I'm going to bed.

                    Hopefully I'll see the light when I wake up.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Wrist Cock ?????

                      Originally posted by Neil18 View Post
                      I do apoligise I'm having a fuzzy day and I have a headache but I'm not quite getting all of this.

                      When I cock my wrists in the backswing I aim to do so in precisely that manner. Back. I don't cock my wrists up. Cocking them up would indeed take the clubhead away from its' desired path and (with me) leads to a cupped left wrist at the top. Ugh!

                      My wrist cock sees the back of my right hand go towards my right forearm. That, to me, is not cocking my wrists up, but cocking them back.

                      I guess (because it happens too quick to even warrant trying to think about it) that when I do it right, the clubhead is released in a circle, I have no forward flipping of my right hand and the clubhead stays on the intended arc, pulling my wrists and arms straight after impact.

                      Are we talking about how we cock our wrists leading to how we release?

                      I dunno.

                      I'm going to bed.

                      Hopefully I'll see the light when I wake up.
                      Hi Neil,

                      I hope you feel better later.

                      If you were to address a club then lift it off the ground by hinging your wrists in an upwards only direction, that's what I mean by cocking the wrists. If you look at video advice on the Net, in books, all over the place you will find that people suggest that you must cock and uncock the wrists during the swing to generate power and release the club. I am saying that I think this is incorrect and the way power and release should be generated is through the rotation of the wrists and forearms. I am also suggesting that cocking and uncocking the wrists causes problems with many golfers as it moves the club face off plane by around two feet in the backswing and compensation must be made in the down swing to bring it back.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Wrist Cock ?????

                        I’d like to join the polite debate.

                        True, the direction of the wrist cock is perpendicular to the plane at address and impact because the hands are basically perpendicular to the plane at address and impact. However, as the shoulders rotate back and forth through 90 degrees, so do the hands. At the top of the swing, the direction of the wrist cock is parallel to the plane. The wrist stay basically parallel to the plane through most of the downswing. As they approach the ball, the hands come inside the club head plane and rotate back to square.

                        Your picture from Dante’s book. See his left wrist is basically parallel to the target line. When he starts to release the cock of the left wrist at this point, the clubhead will be releasing on plane. If he did nothing but release the wrist cock here, he would stay right on plane, but he would also have an extremely open face at impact. To close the face, he will roll the forearms or rotate the shoulders past square, ala Greg Willis. The momentum of the clubhead continues on plane while the hands square up and turn perpendicular to the plane and target line. The momentum of the club head down the line while the hands are now basically perpendicular to the line will pull open the angle between the back of the right hand and the right forearm. If we get to impact before we lose all the angle we get a nice crisp hit.

                        As Neil said before, very little speed is created by rolling the forearms just as very little speed is created by the clubface closing. Again, Dante’s picture. Examine what will happen in the time in the downswing from this picture, when the shaft is parallel to the ground, club face "open", until impact. The "closing" action of the clubhead is a 90 degree rotation about the longitudinal axis of the shaft, that is the mass of the clubhead rotating on a very small radius, ie, about half the length of the clubhead maybe an 2" maximum. During the same time period, the release of the wrist takes the same mass of clubhead through a 90 degree rotation about the grip end of the club. The radius is much larger, ie, the length of the shaft, maybe 35" or so for some iron. The angular velocity of the two actions is eqaul (both make a 90 degree rotation in the same time period) but the one acting on the longer radius is going to produce the most instantaneous linear velocity of the club head.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Wrist Cock ?????

                          Originally posted by BrianW View Post
                          That's not what I mean. I am not saying that the arm and clubshaft should be in a straight line, the wrists form a natural cocked angle at address, this angle should be maintained and not increased or decreased. What does change is the rotation of the forearms and wrists and it is this that generates the release and clubhead speed. The model in your attachment is 2 dimentional and only representing X & Y translations, if a Z translation is considered then my explanation applies.
                          Look at most pro swing sequences "down the line" and their arm and club positions all look pretty 2D to me ... plane ... and they have wrist-forearm rotation and most have a FLW. So what would the one that you are putting forth look like?

                          To me it sounds like you want a bent left wrist. But then you say not the back of the hand but the bottom of the hand (side next to the pinky finger) and the forearm. Is this what you are saying?

                          Originally posted by BrianW View Post
                          Just consider throwing a golf ball with your right hand in a powerful under arm right handed throw. You would take your arm back, let your hand and forearm pronate backwards then throw your arm forward and allow your wrist to supinate forwards to generate power. You would not consider cocking your wrists up and down.
                          Very powerful underhand throw ... windmill throw ... there is no backswing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Wrist Cock ?????

                            Originally posted by kbp View Post
                            I’d like to join the polite debate.

                            True, the direction of the wrist cock is perpendicular to the plane at address and impact because the hands are basically perpendicular to the plane at address and impact. However, as the shoulders rotate back and forth through 90 degrees, so do the hands. At the top of the swing, the direction of the wrist cock is parallel to the plane. The wrist stay basically parallel to the plane through most of the downswing. As they approach the ball, the hands come inside the club head plane and rotate back to square.

                            Your picture from Dante’s book. See his left wrist is basically parallel to the target line. When he starts to release the cock of the left wrist at this point, the clubhead will be releasing on plane. If he did nothing but release the wrist cock here, he would stay right on plane, but he would also have an extremely open face at impact. To close the face, he will roll the forearms or rotate the shoulders past square, ala Greg Willis. The momentum of the clubhead continues on plane while the hands square up and turn perpendicular to the plane and target line. The momentum of the club head down the line while the hands are now basically perpendicular to the line will pull open the angle between the back of the right hand and the right forearm. If we get to impact before we lose all the angle we get a nice crisp hit.

                            As Neil said before, very little speed is created by rolling the forearms just as very little speed is created by the clubface closing. Again, Dante’s picture. Examine what will happen in the time in the downswing from this picture, when the shaft is parallel to the ground, club face "open", until impact. The "closing" action of the clubhead is a 90 degree rotation about the longitudinal axis of the shaft, that is the mass of the clubhead rotating on a very small radius, ie, about half the length of the clubhead maybe an 2" maximum. During the same time period, the release of the wrist takes the same mass of clubhead through a 90 degree rotation about the grip end of the club. The radius is much larger, ie, the length of the shaft, maybe 35" or so for some iron. The angular velocity of the two actions is eqaul (both make a 90 degree rotation in the same time period) but the one acting on the longer radius is going to produce the most instantaneous linear velocity of the club head.
                            Thanks for the input.

                            If I understand you correctly you agree?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Wrist Cock ?????

                              Originally posted by BrianW View Post
                              I often hear or read things relating to golf that I find hard to reconcile in my mind, some of these things are taken as almost sacrosanct and come from some of the greats in the sport so one tends to accept them on face value, even though they are misleading or completely wrong.

                              Some examples:

                              To get the ball in the air it has to be trapped between the clubface and the ground.

                              Ball spin is created by the grooves on the club face.

                              Recently I have been considering another that is so wide spread I keep thinking I must be wrong but the more I consider it I cannot see that I am. This misconception is that the wrists have to be cocked or hinged up and down to generate power in the shot. The more I consider this issue the more convinced I become that it is incorrect and a cause of inconsistency in the swing.

                              Feel free to enter into polite debate on this subject as I have come to the conclusion that wrist cocking should be avoided in the swing and the pronation/supination of the wrists are the source of power we should be using, although I am open to considering any contrary opinions.
                              I see flaws with the logic, examples, and explanation with the article you copied and pasted. Like Neil18 I don't agree with the statement made that said power comes from the rotation of the arms (and many of the other faulty statements from the copy/paste above), but I will not get into that here. Getting back to the subjects of power generation and the wrists role in the golf swing.

                              I agree that wrist cock as defined by you and whom ever you copy and pasted does not produce power, but I do believe wrist hinge (the folding back of the right wrist in the waiter/tray position) as talked about by Nick Faldo in Golf the Winning Formula is responsible for storing and retaining power generated by the other parts of the body. Similar to how the flex of the back knee (right knee for right handed golfers) and resistance in the legs prevent power loss and leakage.

                              Biomechanics, physics, kinesthetics, and anatomy have suggested that the big muscles of the body are the power generators. Electrodes that have been attached to golfers to monitor muscle activity tend to support that premise.

                              If the right wrist has not hinged, or does not retain its hinge as the swing starts down (as it is described by Faldo) then the angle of attack, body, and club are susceptible to gravity, centripetal force, and drag that will reduce and drain potential power and clubhead speed at impact (and/or misdirect it).

                              Many pro golfers have said that the big muscles generate the most power while the little muscles generating very little (if any) power. Steve Elkington for example makes an analogy between a golfers body and a space shuttle. Here is a small excerpt from page 60 of his Five Fundamentals book:

                              "The golfers body could be compared to the space shuttle. The shuttle launch vehicle is a big machine with three main components. The first and most powerful stage, the main booster rocket, is analogous to the golfer's trunk. The secondary booster is the arms. At the top is the orbiter itself, which is the lightest and least powerful part but has the most maneuverability and importance. The shuttle is the wrists, of course."
                              Last edited by Avid Golfer; 01-28-2008, 04:58 PM. Reason: shortened quote from BrianW, since I was not disecting it in my post. Also corrected grammer errors.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X