the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

[bill reed]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

hi Avidgolfer
i did read what Trevino wrote about Moe many years ago and he was impressed with his "ball control" as he put it and did say he understand Moe's reluctance to meet the press, and added that he (Trevino) was rather shy and had to put on a front when he played and the funny and outgoing character Trevino played on the golf course was so diffrent to the shy and recluse person he was off the golf course, he said he had to made himself into a Jeckel & hyde person to survive the tour and Moe did not have that and thats why it took such a toll on him, he added that if Moe had the personality to meet and talk to the press then he would of won on tour.
Brian
i think the second clip you posted shows that Moe tried to keep the back of his hand square through impact before turning over, where the modern pro player turned his hand over quicker than Moe did.
cheers
bill

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

There has got to be rotation to create power, like a top spin shot in table tennis....!!

Years ago when balls moved alot more in the air players tried to hold off shots to stop the massive draws and slices they had to endure with limited equipment.

Also it was mentioned about Tiger working on less rotation yet most of his bad shots go right, I suggest he works on rotation not less.......only my opinion.

Moe Norman was one of the best ball strikers ever, that came from pros of that era, who witnessed it.............why I think because it was so simple and repeatable.

You must remember the human body and brain is capable of repeating the most complex of movements even rotationg the hands/arms at 100mph.

How quickly does your eye close if something blows into it, thats how quick you can react.

Ian.

[bill reed]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

hi Ian
sorry i have to disagree with you in your view that to get power you must rotate the arms. look at A Palmer at his peek he was one on the longest hitter on tour and he held off the turning of his hands and arms through impact, Lee Trevino was another that held off the rotation of his arms and hands, he was not the longest but was up in the middle for distance.
you other point about your reaction speed, it is fast if it done with the subconscious as in the point you make about blowing in your eye, but if you think about it it slows down, in the golf swing the less you think and the more you let your body react the better you swing.
cheers
bill

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Hi Bill,

What we don't know Bill were these players pound for pound longer, Ben Hogan is on youtube hitting a 4 iron 155yds.

There isn't a player under the sun that doesn't have rotation, some just look like the rotate more than others Garcia for example, I as stated in the older days the balls drew and faded much much more, therefore the better player learned to hold of the face, loosing distance but gaining acuracy.

Now in modern days I believe it is proven that rotaion creates spin which inturn creates much more distance and lift on the ball.

Rotaion alone is usless you would just hook it, the combination of downward blow while rotation the face from open to closed through the ball is why I think pound for pound players today are longer.

Ian.

[BrianW]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

There has always been debate on the subject of wrist rotation and there probably always will be. I think that some may be able to let it happen but many cannot. I know I can't, if I do not control my wrists they will leave the clubface open and push the ball and it's no good anyone telling me otherwise.

I am of the camp that thinks the wrists are the fastest moving parts of the body and need to be consciously trained to release in the most effective manner, educated wrists. IMO it becomes a lottery on what will happen if you let wrist rotation and closing of the clubface take care of its self. I cannot see how the lag can be created and released effectively by holding off the wrists, well I cant see it in my case anyway.

I also think Ian is correct in that rotation of the clubface through impact creates power, it is the way the lag in the shaft gets whipped through the ball, its the way you get speed by throwing a stone underarm, the way you crack a whip. The difference with the golf swing is that there needs to be precision when striking a ball with a club, if you can do this subconsciously then good for you. Most people I observe playing golf cant though, they push/pull/slice/hook and these are due to the clubface being out of alignment at impact.

Lets not forget that we are not tour pros here, we do not practice 6 hours a day, we do not have their ability.

[bill reed]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Hi Brian
i do take your point and do agree most players do use the wrists and forearm rotation to give there swing that little "home run" as AG Bonner use to say, but not all golf swings are like that. i can only speak for myself and using the wrist/forearm rotation when i played with a draw years ago and i was longer off the tee but that was more to do with the ball drawing that my hands and wrist, now and for the last few years i have been playing with the system of not turning my wrists or forearms and to do that i have to stand very open but i only hit about 15 yard less fading than i did when hitting a draw 6 years ago, so i don't think the power has to be in the hands and wrist but has more to do with how every other part of your body working together, if you swing like me then there more movement from the hips and less in the hands in wrists, but i would think in your swing Brian there is very little hips movement in both the backswing and downswing, the hips will turn but not slid forward like i have to do.
i think when we talk on here we all think of how we swing but we all have diffrent swings and do things diffrent, i think that why only Hogan has come up with a golf system that most but not all think works and most of the big named teaches "Leadbetter and co" have to some extent copied Hogan book in a lot of aspects.
we do have Moe Norman, lee Trevino and Mindy Blake who all found a diffrent system that worked for them and does work for many others but also don't suit all players just like Hogan's swing don't suit all. one thing i have found about Moe's swing is that there are so many so called experts putting there slant on his swing that often you get the wrong information and it hard to find out what Moe thought as he never wrote a book with his views.
cheers
bill

[Neil18]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

There has always been debate on the subject of wrist rotation and there probably always will be. I think that some may be able to let it happen but many cannot. I know I can't, if I do not control my wrists they will leave the clubface open and push the ball and it's no good anyone telling me otherwise.

I am of the camp that thinks the wrists are the fastest moving parts of the body and need to be consciously trained to release in the most effective manner, educated wrists. IMO it becomes a lottery on what will happen if you let wrist rotation and closing of the clubface take care of its self. I cannot see how the lag can be created and released effectively by holding off the wrists, well I cant see it in my case anyway.

I also think Ian is correct in that rotation of the clubface through impact creates power, it is the way the lag in the shaft gets whipped through the ball, its the way you get speed by throwing a stone underarm, the way you crack a whip. The difference with the golf swing is that there needs to be precision when striking a ball with a club, if you can do this subconsciously then good for you. Most people I observe playing golf cant though, they push/pull/slice/hook and these are due to the clubface being out of alignment at impact.

Lets not forget that we are not tour pros here, we do not practice 6 hours a day, we do not have their ability.

I like that this is still an ongoing thread!

The way I look at forearm rotation is this: if we just stand and grip the club as we would normally, and don't do anything other than rotate the forearms the way one may do during a full shot, the clubhead is not moving very fast, or with much power. If we try to rotate our arms faster, the club starts to get a bit out of control. If we were to hit a ball like this with a 6 iron it wouldn't go 20 yards, but it could go anywhere, and probably will.

To me, the wrists and forearms have the most important relationship with the club in that they mirror what is happening to the clubface. If we have done the exercise above and agree that there isn't much speed in rotating the forearms alone, then the only other thing that rotating the forearms really does is change the position of the clubface. It goes from open to square to closed within a few feet. So rotating the forearms does more for clubface alignment than it does add speed. Quite a bit more, in fact.

I agree that the arms as a whole unit move fast in the intended direction of flight, but adding rotation makes repeatedly squaring the clubface harder and is precisely why those of us that try to employ it use the defence that "I don't have six hours a day to practice it" (no offence meant). Those that have 6 hours a day to practice it, need it for it to be as reliable as it possibly can be. For those that don't, rotating the forearms will not yeald permanent reliable results. And why would we advocate playing a hard game in a way that requires so much practice we can't fit it in, then use that as a reason for our short-comings? It doesn't logically make sense.

I think it's why so many of us hit the ball great one day, and poor the next seemingly without changing anything. Forearm rotation changes the clubface alignment so much in such a short space of time and distance, that controlling it and repeating it is going to be based on how "clean" the connection is between brain and body on any given day, which also happens to be random. There's too much randomness going on here!

I'm not talking about wrist rotation taking care of itself. I'm saying wrist rotation is responsible for clubface alignment more than it is responsible for adding power. If it added power, "climbover" that we see so many good players have would not occur after the ball has gone. It would occur before and during impact. Climbover and wrist/forearm rotation is the natural reaction to centripetal force going out through the clubhead, and the fact that we are holding the grip with one hand lower than the other, and that we are turing through the shot.

The two major things Tiger has always faught are flipping and getting stuck. He's remodelled his swing to be more reliable more often. He rotates his hands much less now in the backswing (not fanning the clubface open as much) and is gradually getting rid of the apparently deep-rooted desire to flip at the ball. He loses shots right when his lower half still outraces his top half. It's such a deep rooted perception on how to swing the club that even the best player in the world is taking his time with it. He's very close now though, but it's only taken him so long because, like all of us, he's heard and "understood" some things that were not analogous to being as consistent and powerful as possible.

I maintain that arm speed is important, but only in terms of swinging them in the intended direction of flight. Swing the arms fast forward, the ball will go fast forward. Swing the arms fast forward and try to rotate the arms at the same time and you end up with a fast moving clubhead with a fast changing angle of the clubface. The ball could go anywhere.

There is a grip and a way of moving that allows the clubhead to come back to square with forward shaft lean and loads of power without adding forearm rotation. It doesn't come close to resembling how most people think of swinging a golf club, but it sure looks very similar. The muscle groups used are different and the mental pcture of swinging it is different. For those of us English chaps that may have dabbled with Cricket, picture a cover drive and you won't be too far off.

Ben Hogan said it best. Something about doing what we'd be inclined not to do, in order to get a perfect swing. In wishing he had three right hands for power, I think he was telling us that he couldn't use his right hand as much as he wanted, so he wanted three. It wasn't an ego-driven plea for more power. His forearms didn't rotate until halfway through his follow-through.

The consistent power and direction we all crave in any full golf shot does not come from adding a final burst of speed by moving yet another part of our body in order to coincide with impact. The human brain is fast, but not that fast. The power we need is already in the motion of our body and arms combined. We just need to find the grip that allows the clubface to square up when the swing bottoms out.

[kbp]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Perfectly stated, Neil.

[BrianW]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

As I said the debate will go on.

http://www.kevinsprecher.com/2006/press/power.pdf

http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Secret-T...Speed---Part-2

http://www.golftipsmag.com/instructi...e-release.html

http://www.golfillustrated.com/swingtipsWristCock.asp

[GregJWillis]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

He says, "Allow the rotation of the left hand to swing down and through..."

The word "allow" is going to be misinterpreted. It will most likely mean "force". This is going to cause the student to groove a timing swing that will be fine for the range, but on the course and under pressure, will fail them quite often.

Notice in the video how he had to stay completely still with the body and shoulders to "allow" his hands to roll the face shut?

For me...the hips and shoulder rotation "causes" this rotation in the arms.

As the leading arm extends in impact from a fully rotated shoulder position, the length of the leading arm is starting to become shortened (your leading shoulder is now higher then the trailing), while the trailing arm becomes lengthened into impact. This action alone is enough to create the rotation of the arms required to square the face up. AND most importantly, done with extreme repeatability under ANY level of power required for the shot.

Try to swing harder with the arm/hand-only roll method and 50% of all your shots will hook hard. You will have to realign each shot according to your power requirement, or readjust your grip, or refocus your thoughts on timing that roll. Easy shots will require the same considerations as well expecting a late push.

[Neil18]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Unfortunately, I don't think I entirely agree with any of the above. Especially not gripping the club in the fingers ESPECIALLY of the right hand.

But in the interests of merely continuing a discussion that there are an inevitable amount of differing opinions, I shall just say that!

[BrianW]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

I guess I have nothing else to add. I know what I need to do to close the clubface, what others might do is a matter for them and one that I would not be so crass as to suggest they were wrong.

My other point was referring to Moe Norman and his great ability to strike the ball, I cant see anyone convincing me that he was not the or one of the greatest ball strikers ever.

I leave the thread with that.

[bill reed]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

hi Brian
i think i would put Trevino, Moe, and Hogan Jones as the three best strikers of a golf ball, i would not put one as being better than the other, in Hogans time no one could match him, and it was the same with Lee and Moe in the 70s and 80s. i think Jones back in the early years was also a great striker of a ball.

Ian
in the days we played with the smaller ball it did not spin as much and was longer and lower, even the Americans use to use it when over here at the open. but back then the run shot was used more then the high dropping shot that sticks to the green, I'm old enough to remember using the small ball for a good 10 years and then there was a change to just the big American ball. i do think that the clubs were no so forgiving and almost all were blades as Ping had not invented the cavity back club till the 70s and not long after that other makers copied them, and i think the balls faded due to the clubs of the time and not the ball. if you check you will see that the small ball did spin less and faded or drew less than a big ball in the early 70s.
cheers
bill

[Matt10]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Even though this isn't very informational - I just thought it was a really well done video, love the music.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3m5MOZ-mTRU

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

ANSWER:

Because it doesn't look athletic, no-one uses it.

Fantastic clip.


I didn't know he broke 60 three times and held 40 course records.....!!!


Has anyone ever beat any?

Ian.