the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Hi Cliff,

Un-steady ground here, but you are basically correct.

Your hand are the only thing conected to the club, hence the club face is controlled by the hands, the top level pros 'somehow' have a natual ability to delay the releasing of the hands into the ball so late that the create an incredable amount of power.

the club comes into the ball from the inside then straight back inside again so the face opens and closes very quickly.

Ian.

The ability to delay the releasing of the hands into the ball so late that the create an incredable amount of power. I thought we all play like that?

I don’t think the pro’s work the club so hard through the ball as to determine it’s path at impact as you explain above.

I think they have the ability to control there movement of the club face, and no sudden change in club head shape is practiced other than the centrifugal force that will inevitably happen that opens and closes the face at impact. I practice a square impact and stay square as long as possible through the ball.

You may be possibly thinking of when they need to manufacture a draw on the ball that is a different game altogether.

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

First, the so called top spin shot in table tennis does not add speed it simply redirects it. The ball is redirected to dive sharply into the table. In golf you do not want the ball diving sharply into the ground (that type of action kills momentum, distance, and can plug or cover the ball in mud). Both the tools used, and the games themselves are extremely different (golf and table tennis), so trying to draw parallels between them is a futile endeavor.

Second the blinking of the eyes is a motor movement that animals start to do before they are born and most of the time aren't even consciously aware of doing. In addition the eyes are extremely close (physically) to the brain, and commands don't need to travel past and though tons of other body parts to reach its destination.

Third, and finally, in the golf swing with physics and related principles at work (gravity, centripetal force, kinesthetics, newtons law(s), etc) it is ludicrous to think that additional power could be added (like discussed by others it would be redirected left or right) let alone controlled with any precision.

Hi AvidGolfer

I am lucky in that I play both, maybe not to international standards haha. But the two games are not so far apart that you can rule out similarities, namely balance and timing that both games need to achieve consistency, overstretch at table tennis is no different to over swing at golf, you loose direction and control.

Over the years I have met players that have the uncanny ability to hit controlled power and directions of shots in golf and table tennis with ease.

The process is not dissimilar in that they have great awareness of balance at impact and the follow through is so smooth you hardly see any change in there head height at all. In fact the speed that they hit the ball seems to depend on positioning of the body prior to the shot just as you would set up to a golf ball.

Also understanding how to spin a table tennis ball is a great way to understand spin of a golf ball, I often use the principle/understanding when I need flop a golf ball just over a bunker and land it softly by the flag. Oddly enough you hold off on both shots (meaning you do not let the club/bat pass the hands at impact).

Only my observation m8.

Regards Cliff

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=fJYl1u8vAzc&feature=related

YOU MAY HAVE TO COPY AND PASTE THIS TO YOUR PC, JOINING UP THE GAP.

This is probably the best for showing this misconception regarding a straight face at impact.

Watch the swing first and not half way down into the ball through impact to half way again you will note a inside approach then impact and straight back inside again.

Yet the club face hitting ball at the end of the clip shows a straight faced impact.

Even the Biz-Hub swing vision camera can't capture the effect put on the ball.

Ian.

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=fJYl1u8vAzc&feature=related

YOU MAY HAVE TO COPY AND PASTE THIS TO YOUR PC, JOINING UP THE GAP.

This is probably the best for showing this misconception regarding a straight face at impact.

Watch the swing first and not half way down into the ball through impact to half way again you will note a inside approach then impact and straight back inside again.

Yet the club face hitting ball at the end of the clip shows a straight faced impact.

Even the Biz-Hub swing vision camera can't capture the effect put on the ball.

Ian.

I have no misconception on how I want to keep the ball straight. I just keep the face square through impact while the club is travelling on target/straight through the ball.

Not to sure what you feel when you play. But that’s what I try and do and have no problem hitting it straight!

Now if you want to draw it then ask me! It’s not as above but close lol.

Mo would need to make the wrist work through the ball to achieve the same thing (hitting it straight). But timing is all important as he was a master of that. Until I have reached his level (over the next 10 years maybe) I will need to keep the club square through impact as long as possible and let club head take it’s course back to the inside when the ball is well on it’s way.

This would help most players.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lSteA0...A3420&index=13

[BrianW]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

I have kind of lost track of what this thread is about so I will rattle on a little more about Moe and his swing and what the difference was to the average tour pros swing.

What happened with Moe's clubface through impact was much the same as other good ball strikers, he could do it right just about every time though What made it so repeatable was the simplicity of it, I think that if most new golfers were trained with a single plane rotary swing similar to his then they would see quicker and better results.

The DE-facto two plane swing is difficult to execute, it relies on careful changes of plane through the swing that need complex changes in posture and promotes the upper and lower body being twisted in a manner that leads to back problems.

Moe did work the wrists through the ball but in a very controlled manner, he kept the lead arm extended on plane and folded the trail arm pre-impact and the trail arm extended on plane and folded the lead arm post-impact.

As a matter of interest the clubface needs to be near square as it reaches the centre of the ball position to hit a straight shot, not as it meets the back of the ball. Making the clubface square at or near the back of the ball will promote a draw or hook.

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

But surly if you are using a one swing plane yourself you understand that the timing of the club is more exact than a two club plane. Having it on a single plane with a firm left arm at impact would mean you must roll the wrists to accommodate a square face if only for a short time.

While a two swing plane will smooth out the hitting zone so you can stay online longer without the need for excessive wrist movement.

I wont be trying the one swing plane, it might take me back a few years. I’m getting to old for that lol.

But in some ways I use it like a very short chip (rather like putting) that’s as near as I will get.

One other little thing (As a matter of interest the clubface needs to be near square as it reaches the centre of the ball position to hit a straight shot, not as it meets the back of the ball. Making the clubface square at or near the back of the ball will promote a draw or hook) I would hope you stay on track longer than a micro second!

Regarding the direction of the thread.

We are talking about Mo v Pro’s I have put the pro’s side you are putting the one swing mo’s side.

All in all golf is about repeating a golf swing that gets you from a to b.

Now as far as technique goes each to his own. But at the end of the day you must be able to repeat a golf swing with the confidence that what you are hitting will be right for the job in hand.

But do carry on, I would be interested in knowing how you have come about using the one swing plane golf swing over the standard two plane. Who showed you and how long ago. For all I know BrianW could be Jeff Ritter!

Regards Cliff

[BrianW]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

I moved to a one plane swing for a number of reasons. Some of those reasons were that I have back problems and my previous 2 planer was exasperating that. I also have a fairly powerful build (not fat) and find a one plane swing more suitable for someone with a broader chest and shoulders, the rotary action is more natural.

Over the years I have had extensive lessons and coaching and mainly this was targeted to a one plane swing. Professionally I am an engineer and I like to think through the mechanics of of the golf swing (Sad I know) I came across Moe Norman and was impressed by the way he hit golf balls, after studying him, looking at some others like Hogan (Don't want to get drawn into whether he was a one or two planer) and Singh then reading some books (Nick Bradley's 7 Laws of the Golf Swing being one) I came to the conclusion that I should try a more rotary swing. I have been working on this for a few years now and was more recently impressed with the 3 Skills system which also fitted in perfectly with what I had been working on. I also practice a lot, around 3 to 4 range sessions a week in the winter.

That's the general outline Cliff. As to being Jeff Ritter, maybe 30 years ago

[Ian Hancock]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

But surly if you are using a one swing plane yourself you understand that the timing of the club is more exact than a two club plane. Having it on a single plane with a firm left arm at impact would mean you must roll the wrists to accommodate a square face if only for a short time.

While a two swing plane will smooth out the hitting zone so you can stay online longer without the need for excessive wrist movement.

I have to disagree: A two planer comes into the ball exactly the same as a one planer, it is the backswing which is steeper, we all have to come into the ball on the same flatter plane line.

I will be so bold Brian as to say Hogan is a one planer give or take an inch.

I like the clip Cliff, very thought provoking, I think that encourages a rotation through impact by keeping the elbow to the ground.

Ian.

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Great Post BrianW.

I have been playing for 20 years now, I started out a bit late after 20 years of cricket, now that’s a game that does not suit golf at all. (I would say golf is great for cricket though haha after 2 years of golf I had a great cover drive)

I have never been able to get my hands above my shoulders due to cricket, and play what you could say a ¾ swing at best. I have never had any problem with weight shift as you need it in cricket as much as golf if you understand what I mean. On the odd occasion when I am trying a new feeling/move/experiment in golf I suffer with the old back twinge, just like you would if you practice putting to long in one position.

Why do we put ourselves through this pain! Because we love the game so much.

Regards Cliff

PS we must have something in common! I was an engineer as well about 30 years ago.

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

I have to disagree: A two planer comes into the ball exactly the same as a one planer, it is the backswing which is steeper, we all have to come into the ball on the same flatter plane line.

I will be so bold Brian as to say Hogan is a one planer give or take an inch.

I like the clip Cliff, very thought provoking, I think that encourages a rotation through impact by keeping the elbow to the ground.

Ian.

Maybe you could explain how this comes about?

I need to go back to school on this and get my angles sorted out. I assumed that if you raise your hands higher through impact than address the club would in effect be more vertical to the ground, therefore would straighten the line of entry to a golf ball.

Maybe I’m wrong !!

Maybe you could tell me what is going on at the top of the swing and impact?

[bill reed]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

hi Cliff
in a two plane swing the arms swing on a plane higher than the shoulders and the left arm is between the head and the shoulder when fully into the back-swing, with the one plane swing the arms swing back on the same plane as the shoulders and are more or less in line with the angle of the shoulders, but in the one plane swing the player bends over more where the two plane swing the player stands taller. in the one plane swing it is a flatter swing plane in the same way a 5 foot 2 guy would swing flatter than a 6 foot 2 guy using the same one or two plane swing. if an average guy swings two plane and then changes to a one plane then he will bend over more and drop his hands more too and swing a bit flatter and also come into the ball a bit flatter than before. changing plane to a one plane also means that you may need to change the lie of the clubs to give them a flatter lie.
with Moe he raised his hand and needed his clubs to have a higher lie than standard and he had his arm in line with the club shaft and i think he was the only player to do this.
cheers
bill

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

You often hear of players that lower the plane at the top of the swing, I do that btw. Then you see players that make impact with the hands higher than address.

1/ Now If a player has the same swing plane going back and down to impact and the hands at impact are the same as address(is that a one plane swing!)

2/ Now If a player has the same swing plane going back and down but at impact his hands are higher than address (is that a two plane swing!)

3/ Now If a player has the Higher swing plane going back and a lower swing going down but at impact his hands are higher than address (is that a three plane swing!)

It maybe that the hands at impact have nothing to do with swing plane! that way you can forget the 3rd question lol...


I need help on this one lol.

[BrianW]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

Moe held the club through the palms of his hands, his arms did not hang down under his shoulders put pointed out on an extension of the club shaft so that they started on plane.

If you wish to see a bit more or learn about his swing this site explains it all: http://moenormangolfacademy.org/Default.aspx

You may be using a form of a one plane swing already Cliff without knowing it

[bill reed]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

hi Cliff
if the arms and hands swing back on one plane then when you start down that plane flattens as the right elbow comes more into the side but it still a one plane swing. the back-swing and down-swing are not the same. there is always a slite dropping of the plane, it the same with a two plane swing, a two plane swing is where the arms swing on one plane and the shoulders on another so the left arm is higher than the shoulder but on the down-swing the plane does flatten a bit due to the elbow of the right hand the the movement of the hips and there is more of a shift of weight to the left too.
the difference form a one plane to a two plane is a one plane the left arm swings on the same plane as the shoulder and in the two plane the arm and shoulders swing on diffrent planes, but you are right in that in a one plane swing you do swing on two planes, one going back and one swing down but this is called a one plane swing.
hope that helps.
cheers
bill

[Cliff]

Re: the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

I'm Orthodox and that goes for religion too but we wont go into that!

Tell me this you talk about Mo being one plane. Does your swing look like Mo's or Nick Faldo's!

Is Nick Faldo using a one swing plane?

Regards Cliff