Increasing Distance

[tomallinder]

I am 49 years old. I am a good player with aspirations of playing in USGA event and other events that are played on long golf courses. I am unwilling to wait another year to reach age 50 and play from the middle tees in local events. I believe at my age I should be able to hit the ball long enough to keep up with almost anyone.

I am 6' tall, bench press 270 lbs, leg press 1000+ lbs. I have a fitness room with every training aid there is. I have weighted clubs, speed stick- everything and use them. I can swing the Speed Stick at 115-118 mph.

I am a good player only because I practice hard at the short game. I am very good inside of 120 yards. I can get the ball in the hole.

My problem is... I only carry my tee shots 255-260 on my best contact. Video shows clearly that on the course, at impact with the driver, my hips are only parallel to the target line, not through and facing more toward the target. This limits my power. Also, I have to work very hard to keep my spine angle and not be standing up at impact. I do drive the ball accurately. Usually in the fairway and longer than most my age.

The eye-opener came by playing Torrey Pines South from the back tees... I stood no chance. I hit driver, 2h 3 wood, howitzers to par 4s all day and only my short game kept my from shooting into the 80s.

Same thing at Pinehurst #2 from US Open tees. I was in fairway all day but hitting long clubs 2h, 3 iron to par 4s. Pinehurst #2 greens to not accept shots from 220-230 yards very well. Again, short game kept me in mid 70s for 2 rounds.

I CAN NOT compete with other good players on LONG golf courses. I play with guys that are good and drive it 40-60 yards past me. Its embarrassing. They are hitting 7 irons into 490 yard par 4s and I am hitting a 2h or 3 iron. Lack of distance puts huge pressure on my short game and putting.

How can I get the hips to get through the swing? Why on video do my hips start turning just before I complete the backswing but as I come down into impact, hip turn stops and my arms take over and provide all the power from that point on?> My finish looks good only because ARMS drag the hips around...

[GregJWillis]

Re: Increasing Distance

I would venture to guess that you have very strong arms and hands...and you use them too much...to your own detriment.

I would also guess that for you to hit the ball farther, that you swing even harder with them. "Speed Stick at 115-118 mph"

What you are missing is max acceleration point at the point of impact.

The speed stick does not calculate acceleration, only it's maximum velocity at some point. So, without acceleration through the ball and at it's maximum at impact, you can have all the swing speed power you want, but without out it timed correctly someone with a lessor velocity but greater acceleration at the point of impact will out drive you.

And to make it worse, they look like they are swinging with less effort...

My suggestion:

Re-approach the swing from a different angle. Start to relax a bit. Allow the body to synchronize with the arms and hands. Allow the club head to be felt, and not just the club shaft it's self. i.e. Don't just swing the club, but swing the head. This creates a different sensation. One that lets you relax the whole body, arms and hands and lets them be a sequence of simple movements that create a snap or whip of the head through the ball.

[bill reed]

Re: Increasing Distance

hi
one point is the pro's hit the ball in the sweet spot time after time after time. if we hit just 1/4 of an inch off the sweet spot we can lose over 10 yards and we dont hit that spot all that often, try putting impact tape on your driver and hit 10 balls at the range and you will see what i mean. it the same with the irons, look at a pro's wedge most have a spot the size of a ball worn onto the face, now check your with impact tape. if you want to hit longer then work on hitting that sweet spot or closer to it, you will find you can swing slower and hit the sweet spot and hit the ball longer then when your swinging flat out and just miss the sweet spot but 1/4 of an inch. also most sweet spots are NOT in the center of the driver there a bit higher up. so you could be hitting in the center of the face but not the sweet spot.
cheers
bill

[Started2k3]

Re: Increasing Distance

What club would you use from 170 yds out? Under normal conditions.

My guess .... 6 iron.

[tomallinder]

Re: Increasing Distance

Thanks so much for the replies. I will try to relax as Greg said. One point I really understand is unleashing the force in the impact zone. If I could just relax at the top of the backswing and start the downswing smoothly, I might be able to get it. But for some reason put a driver in my hand and I turn into an idiot.

Oh, I hit the center of the club, On my driver(s) there is a spot right in the middle and slightly above the center of the clubface. As I mentioned, somehow I am accurate. All of my irons have worn spots ever so slighly toward the hosel but in the middle of the clubface. I use Callaway X forged irons. I can tell with any club at impact exactly where I hit it on the face without looking.

170 is an easy 6 iron or fairly hard 7 iron. At the end of last summer, I was hitting the 4 iron 210-215 in the air and getting 225-230 from the 3 iron. Then would hit a driver dead solid and it would carry only 20-30 yards past the 3 iron. I have a lot of drivers, all latest technology etc so that is not the problem.

I am determined to fix the problem. I am going to find a way to relax the swing and get sequenced with the long clubs ie 3 wood and driver...

[Started2k3]

Re: Increasing Distance

170 is an easy 6 iron or fairly hard 7 iron. At the end of last summer, I was hitting the 4 iron 210-215 in the air and getting 225-230 from the 3 iron. Then would hit a driver dead solid and it would carry only 20-30 yards past the 3 iron. I have a lot of drivers, all latest technology etc so that is not the problem.

The reason I asked was to check if your club distance progression was distorted at the top end. But that seems OK. You do have an odd progression to get to the 4i and 3i ... Your 4i and 3i are more like a 290 hitter ... comparing to the chart in the link (with some interpretation):
http://forum.ottawagolf.com/attachme...4&d=1166721427
[OG stands for OttawaGolf]

So it doesn't seem like an equipment problem.

Since you workout anyway maybe just incorporate some golf specific exercises. Check out some of the exercises on theses sites:

http://www.consistentgolf.com/blog/
http://www.sonicboomgolf.com/articles.php

Looks like your focus needs to be on increasing your speed.

Good luck and great golf.
Charles

[tomallinder]

Re: Increasing Distance

Your 4i and 3i are more like a 290 hitter ...

Thats exactly my point

I do a lot of golf specific excercises. I will have a look at these too. Thanks!

I think my problem is the tension and need for more distance has paralyzed me in the impact area with the driver. I am going to smooth it out and swing 50% power for a while then gradually increase it to 80% or so. I have found that I was able to work out other problems in the past by throttling back full swing to 50% then increasing. But, its hard to do that with the driver... Should have tried that before.

There is no reason with my strength and length with the shorter clubs that I should not be carrying the ball 270, 280...

[Avid Golfer]

Re: Increasing Distance

How can I get the hips to get through the swing? Why on video do my hips start turning just before I complete the backswing but as I come down into impact, hip turn stops and my arms take over and provide all the power from that point on?> My finish looks good only because ARMS drag the hips around...

If you hips are turning back to the target before you complete your backswing, and you truely are not getting your hips open at impact, then it probably means your hips are turning excessively on the backswing. (The more they turn on the backswing the less open you'll have time to get them at impact). Try to reduce your hip rotation on the backswing, and see if that helps you get your hips working better on the downswing. In addition, make sure your back knee is maintaining it's flex. If you loose resistance in your legs you'll loose your ability to spring back into the ball.

I find it odd that you say you are able to drive it 260 yards, but you also say that your hips aren't turning through. Most people who have stalled hips (like you're reporting) never get near 260 yards. If you look at biomechanical, physics, and motion studies of the golf swing you will often see graphs that show that one part of the body transfers power to the next, and then slows down, so it is not abnormal to see the hips slow down and then the arms speed up.

[Started2k3]

Re: Increasing Distance

The reason I asked was to check if your club distance progression was distorted at the top end. But that seems OK. You do have an odd progression to get to the 4i and 3i ... Your 4i and 3i are more like a 290 hitter ...

Thats exactly my point

I think you missed my point. I was confused that your gaps between clubs do not follow an almost fixed progression. [see attached table] I believe that most people pretty much stay in a single column (with a normal swings - not trying to do anything fancy).
From the information that you have provided:
170 shot --- would put you in the 270yds drive (carry + some roll)
3i and 4i --- in the 290yds drive (carry + some roll)
Driver --- 250-260yds

I would guess, so long as your lofts are spot on, that for your 3i and 4i shots you are delofting by a full club (highlighted in blue) to get the added distance. This probably presents a big gap between your 6i and 4i for your 5i to fill.

There is no reason with my strength and length with the shorter clubs that I should not be carrying the ball 270, 280...

FYI - this would mean that your expected 6i distance will be between 190-200yds.

[tomallinder]

Re: Increasing Distance

Over-rotation of the hips on backswing is a likely culprit- so really it may be a case of the arms outrunning the hips going down. That sounds impossible but I can do it.

I need to shoot new video or find some old video but at impact, my hips and shoulders are both parallel to the target line. Ideally, my hips would be 30-45* open at impact.

I agree, its amazing, its all upper body at impact.

Also have some lateral motion through the swing; I coil over my right leg and my lower body begins uncoiling just before I reach the top of the backswing- all well and good. Then as everything is uncoiling, my hips come to a stop and my arms/hands drive down and through. The arms get almost level with my waist before hip turn resumes only because momentum of arms drags hips/lower body around.

I have been in the fitness room hitting balls. With the driver, I am using full swing but only 50% power and am concentrating only on getting hips to keep turning. I am going to work with that for a while until I am comfortable and confident that I can continue to hit the ball on the sweet spot. Then I will gradually increase incrementally up to 80%. Past 80%, spine angle and balance begin to get lost and impact on the sweetspot is chance.

I think tension and the kill reflex is a big part of the problem. I don't feel tension or try to kill the ball with irons or hybrids, but the driver or 3 wood is a different story.

Again I appreciate all the replies... lots of good things for me to look at!

Tom

[kbp]

Re: Increasing Distance

Shooting in the dark here, as really everyone in this thread is. You may want to consider that your hips may be "blocked" from continuing through impact by your body position at impact. Again, shooting in the dark.......things like not enough spine angle lean away from the target at impact (or too much) or slightly "crowding" the ball with the hips (or the opposite) during the downswing (changing primary spine angle). Could also be an anatomical or flexibility issue, but that is probably not likely.

I’ve suggested this to many others. You might want to consider setting up to the ball in a simulated impact position, the one you want, with open hips and parallel shoulders. For a drill, or for "feel", or for analysis, make some swings and hit some balls starting at this "impact" position, making a backswing and a downswing and hitting the ball.

It doesn’t surprise me that you can hit the ball this far with stalled hips. I know several guys that can hit the ball three hundred with basically an upper body swing. THEY don’t usually know where the heck it’s going though. I think at your level, you’re on the right track to try to fix this fault.

[tomallinder]

Re: Increasing Distance

You may want to consider that your hips may be "blocked" from continuing through impact by your body position at impact. Again, shooting in the dark.......things like not enough spine angle lean away from the target at impact (or too much) or slightly "crowding" the ball with the hips (or the opposite) during the downswing (changing primary spine angle). Could also be an anatomical or flexibility issue, but that is probably not likely.

Yes, loss of angles will stop the hip rotation... thats exactly what I saw on video. I basically stand up to throw my arms and hands at it!

Over the last several years I have been working hard not to use my hands to hit the ball... use my big muscles in the body to swing the club with. The arms and hands play a role, but are not the main tool for hitting the golf ball. Its like the bacon and egg breakfast... The chicken (arms and hands) are involved; the pig (body) is committed.

[Martin Levac]

Re: Increasing Distance

Tomallinder, you are 49 years old. You are an adult and understand the difference between a lie and the truth. You understand why we lie. You understand that the person we must never lie to is ourselves. Shed your lies for they will be your undoing.

You aspire to play professionally against other great players. You are candid and I commend you for that. I encourage you to pursue your dream to the end. I wish you the best.


In your original post, you outline clearly what you see as your problem. Yet you are blind to the truth. From the very first paragraph, it is clear that you are convinced that distance is the key to your success. This is the lie. To succeed, you must shed your lies and acquire knowledge. Without knowledge, you don't stand a chance. Below is the knowledge I have acquired. Please accept my modest contribution for it is the best advice I can give you at this time. And like you, I'm am still learning as I go.


1. If you can send the ball 250 yards, you send it far enough.

Take your two longest clubs, see what distance you hit them. Take any golf course you wish to play on professionally. Look at each hole and divide them this way. Subtract the longest club, then the next longest club. If you can reach the green with those two clubs, you can send the ball far enough just fine. Now calculate the score you would make according to this method. See how well you'd play.


2. Distance is not a function of technique.

Distance is a function of launch conditions. These conditions are ball speed, spin and launch angle. For any ball speed, we know precisely what the other two conditions must be for the ball to be launched the farthest. The first condition, ball speed, is determined by your technique mostly. It's you who produces the speed after all. The other two conditions can be manipulated by changing clubhead loft and other characteristics of the clubhead and by changing the shaft for it too will affect launch conditions.

You say that you are very strong. If that is so, then you have ample power to send the ball a fair distance. Keep up with your strength training for it will help you play your best. I have only one advice for you concerning strength training. Train smart. This means, golf specific exercises mean nothing. It's best if you trained with full body compound exercises and not that often anyway. Twice a week is ample.


3. Golf is a game of how close. Not a game of how far.

How far do you send the ball with your short game? The question makes no sense. Why should it make any more sense for the long game or putting for that matter?

The closest you can send the ball to your target, the better you can score. It's that simple. When you focus on how far, you lose sight of your objective. When you focus on how close, you can never lose sight of your objective for your objective, the target, is always where you want to go.


4. No matter the technique you use, be it correct or wild, if you don't strike the ball properly to send it to your target, the technique you use is useless.

You wrote that you think you have a problem with the hips not going through and the spine angle not being right and standing up at impact. None of these things make any difference if you don't strike the ball properly to send it to your target. The goal is not to have proper technique. The goal is not to look good. The goal is to send the ball to the target. Accurate does not mean straight. Accurate means how close to your target. The closer, the more accurate.

You must strike the ball properly to send it to your target. Learn how to do the first, you will be able to do the second.

To strike the ball properly, you must obey the fundamental principles of colliding bodies and the Magnus effect. The Magnus effect comes into play when the ball is in flight but it is determined by how we strike the ball. Search and learn about those two principles. Only then will you be able to apply them so that the ball obeys you.


5. Without practice, you might as well quit right now. With study and practice, we develop, improve and maintain skill.

The amount of practice you do will determine how good you will be. The more you practice, the better you will play. It's up to you to figure out how well you want to play. Get rid of all your gadgets and training aids except the ones that can be used in a playing scenario. Further, any time you devote to using a training aid is time you could have used to practice some part of you actual game. If you want to become an expert at using those training aids, be my guest and keep on practicing with them.

When learning a new motion or maintaining an old one, do so in slow motion. The golf swing, be it full or a chip shot or even the putting stroke, is a complex motion that is done in a short time. Too short for thinking. Too short for corrections. When you learn a new motion, you must think it through. Repeating the motion in slow motion allows to think it through. We learn. The alternative is that we always do it at full speed and never have time to think it through. We don't learn.

To learn is to think. To execute is to do what has been learned without thinking.


6. Finally, learn everything you can about golf and the methods we use to play this game. Try everything. Even what you previously thought was wrong to do. Only through trying it can we learn if it works or if it doesn't work. If all we do is think it's wrong and we never try it, there is no way we can progress. Read this forum or any other forum for that matter for it is filled with knowledge. Keep what works, discard what doesn't.


Have fun

[Martin Levac]

Re: Increasing Distance

My apology. I forgot an important aspect. Diet. I take care to eat properly. I advise you to do the same. If you wish to know what kind of diet I eat, PM me. I don't wish to discuss it openly for various reasons.

[Started2k3]

Re: Increasing Distance

Yes, loss of angles will stop the hip rotation... thats exactly what I saw on video. I basically stand up to throw my arms and hands at it!

Over the last several years I have been working hard not to use my hands to hit the ball... use my big muscles in the body to swing the club with. The arms and hands play a role, but are not the main tool for hitting the golf ball. Its like the bacon and egg breakfast... The chicken (arms and hands) are involved; the pig (body) is committed.

Do you have a copy of the video that you can upload?