Increasing Distance

[HytrewQasdfg]

Re: Increasing Distance

I can understand what you are suggesting: Just about every average Joe can swing a golf club very fast, maybe 120 mph. The issue is can you control contact with the ball at that speed. Most golfers will get better results if they work within their own limitations.

As I get older I realise that most things in life relates to wrist action

"Control contact", "work within their own limitations", "wrist action" are all technique. Nobody is born with technique, it is something you learn.

Now if we are talking about guys on the long drive tours, who routinely hit it 400 yards, then I would agree that is a combination of natural ability, strength, and technique. Not everyone can be taught to hit the ball 400 yards consistently.

But, if we're talking about the average golfer (who hits the ball in the lower 200's) and teaching him to hit the ball in the upper 200's, then I think that can be taught. The typical golfer has the natural ability and strength to do that, he just needs to learn the proper technique to do it (and then practice enough so he can do it consistently.)

[BrianW]

Re: Increasing Distance

"Control contact", "work within their own limitations", "wrist action" are all technique. Nobody is born with technique, it is something you learn.

Now if we are talking about guys on the long drive tours, who routinely hit it 400 yards, then I would agree that is a combination of natural ability, strength, and technique. Not everyone can be taught to hit the ball 400 yards consistently.

But, if we're talking about the average golfer (who hits the ball in the lower 200's) and teaching him to hit the ball in the upper 200's, then I think that can be taught. The typical golfer has the natural ability and strength to do that, he just needs to learn the proper technique to do it (and then practice enough so he can do it consistently.)

You seem to miss the point (and the joke). The point being that swinging out of your skin will not improve your game unless you can control the speed, most would do better to swing slower and make better contact. It goes without saying that people can swing faster if they improve their skill at making solid contact.

Regarding the joke! Well, as I said, it's in the wrist action

[golfunderrepair]

Re: Increasing Distance

Hitting 10% more greens, 10% more fairways, draining 10% more putts, being 10% closer to the pin on your approaches will all drop your score.

Driving 10% further won't make a lot of difference.

Tim.

PS. Is the effort in gaining 10% on the drives not better used to nail 6 irons to the pin?

PPS. Has there been any player, with your age and apparent level who has significantly increased their driving distance and improved their score?

If you said you have a handicap of 20+ and are driving the ball 120 yards then, okay, get to work. But you are an experienced golfer with different aspirations so I'm just wondering if your energy may be better used elsewhere.

[bill reed]

Re: Increasing Distance

hi golfinguy
i read a report about compression of the golf ball and swing speed and one of the thing was that more speed don't give you more compression. well not always. if you have a pro golf swing at 120 mph and coming into impact at that speed then just after impact he would lose about 15 to 20 mph and he would get a lot of compression on the ball.
if you take a handicap player with a 120 swing speed and he comes into impact at 120 mph after impact he can drop to as much as 80 mph and have very little compression all the ball but both golfers have a 120 swing speed.
you also had the handicap golfer with the 90 mph swing speed before impact but only lost 10 mph at impact and was hitting the ball as long as the 120 mph handicap player and this was because of the compression he got on the ball.
having the club head increasing speed at impact seemed not possible going by there research but reducing the loss of speed at impact is and they said it was more about timing than power or speed of the club head.
the also used a robot and found that they could hit the same distance with a 90 mph speed swing as a swing of 120 mph that slowed through impact.
what the pros do that we don't is lose very little speed when contacting the ball.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Increasing Distance

speed is not everything either. I would rather have a swing speed that accelrates from 70 to 110 at impact, then have a swing speed that reaches 120 when the club is waist high and stays that way to impact or even a swing that gets up to 145 but slowed down to 130 at impact.

the 1st guy with an accelerating club head will compress the ball much better and probly even hit the ball further with a higher club head speed.

at 120mph the ball hits the club head and bounces off at 110ish (i dont' know the actual values). wheras at 90mph the ball hits the club head and tries to bounce off of lets say 80mph, but then the club head is accelerated to 100 and the ball is now trying to bounce off at 90 and then the club head accelerated to 110 and now finally the ball has been compressing that whole time and now explodes off of the face at 160. that is where pros get there distance from, compression, not compressing the ball into the ground jargon, but compressing the ball into the club face. the ball is designed to compress to get distance with it. the reason amatuers get such horrible distance but have high club head speed on the swing stick is because yes, they have high clubn head speed. but they have little to no acceleration through the ball and therfore don't get much compression nor use the ball how it was intended to be used and get bad distances.

acceleratoin = compression = distance


if you want to test this theory. get a golf ball, drop it from a very tall building (tall enough to get the ball goin 80mph, you need to do some math 9m/s/s, gravity) measure how high it goes. now throw that ball as hard as you can most people i would guestimate can throw it 60mph. but this ball is now accelerating from 0 to 60 mph in 6 feet versus the ball that took 200'ish(again not correct math) feet to get to 80mph. the 80 is obvoiusly faster, but didn't go anywhere near as high, becuase that ball had very little acceleration or compression. it would go even less high if you had the ball goin 200 mph and had some drag induced slowing it down to 150 at impact. my money would still be on the 60mph ball bouncing the highest over the ball travelling 150mph but decelling or the slow acceling 80mph ball.

Seems like I didn't get my point over very well. I was trying to say that swinging fast is not all important. I was also saying that just about anyone can pick up a golf club and swing it fast if they wish, the problem is that most cannot control the club at that speed and swinging smoother would bring better results.

[bill reed]

Re: Increasing Distance

hi Golfinguy
sorry i don't remember the site i saw it but I'm pretty sure it was on one of the sites BrianW. posted and it was on another part of that site and I'm sure it was something about distance and compression. sorry but i have not been able to find it again.
i had a look but i cant seem to find it. if i do come across it again i let you know.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Increasing Distance

hi Golfinguy
sorry i don't remember the site i saw it but I'm pretty sure it was on one of the sites BrianW. posted and it was on another part of that site and I'm sure it was something about distance and compression. sorry but i have not been able to find it again.
i had a look but i cant seem to find it. if i do come across it again i let you know.
cheers
bill

I am not sure if this is the site Bill but it has some very interesting technical information relating to the ballistics of ball flight.

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/physics4.php?ref=

[bill reed]

Re: Increasing Distance

hi Brian
no that was not the one but it is interesting. i think the link i was on about was to do more with balls and compression and distance.
i was sure it was one of the links you gave but it was on a different page on that link.
i have had a look but can't seem to find it but when I'm not looking for it i bet i come over it.
thats again for all your great links to information sites
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Increasing Distance

hi Brian
no that was not the one but it is interesting. i think the link i was on about was to do more with balls and compression and distance.
i was sure it was one of the links you gave but it was on a different page on that link.
i have had a look but can't seem to find it but when I'm not looking for it i bet i come over it.
thats again for all your great links to information sites
cheers
bill

Bill,

Here is another site that has some views on whether acceleration effects distance:

http://www.patryangolf.com/2006/pat_...club_myths.htm

[MaxxC]

Re: Increasing Distance

hi golfinguy
i read a report about compression of the golf ball and swing speed and one of the thing was that more speed don't give you more compression. well not always. if you have a pro golf swing at 120 mph and coming into impact at that speed then just after impact he would lose about 15 to 20 mph and he would get a lot of compression on the ball.
if you take a handicap player with a 120 swing speed and he comes into impact at 120 mph after impact he can drop to as much as 80 mph and have very little compression all the ball but both golfers have a 120 swing speed.
you also had the handicap golfer with the 90 mph swing speed before impact but only lost 10 mph at impact and was hitting the ball as long as the 120 mph handicap player and this was because of the compression he got on the ball.
having the club head increasing speed at impact seemed not possible going by there research but reducing the loss of speed at impact is and they said it was more about timing than power or speed of the club head.
the also used a robot and found that they could hit the same distance with a 90 mph speed swing as a swing of 120 mph that slowed through impact.
what the pros do that we don't is lose very little speed when contacting the ball.
cheers
bill

Call me a major skeptic but that dosen't seem to line up at all with the basic law of physics. Mass X Velocity Squared.

From "The Search for the Perfect Swing". A scientific study of golf.

"An important consequence of the inability of the player to exert any positive influence on the ball during impact , is this: The only dynamic factor that matters in producing distance is clubhead speed. A given clubhead making square contact with the ball at 100 miles per hour will send it the same distance whether it is accelerating, slowing down or moving a constant speed."

I realize the book is an older publication however physics are physics. Unless the article you sited can explain how the law of physics (in this case E = MC Squared) dosen't apply in hitting a golf ball I will remain a skeptic.

Best Wishes

[bill reed]

Re: Increasing Distance

hi Maxx
but e = mc squared does not take into the equation that golf balls compress and has a spring effect due to its makeup and has a ratting for 0 to 200. 0 being no compression and 200 being 2/10th compression meaning 2/10th of the ball flattens against the club face.
if you use a 0 compression ball then there is no compression and e = MC sq does apply. when the ball does compress it also gives the ball a spring effect when the flattened side of the ball pushes of the club face to regain its shape.

also we can have a club head hit the ball at 120 mph and hit on the sweet spot and it will travel 250 yards in the air, hit at the same speed but 1/3 of an inch right or left of the sweet spot and you can lose 10 yards but the swing speed is the same. so still e = mc sq
it also like the high handicap golfer is better with a 2 piece high compression ball as it compresses less and spins less. but the pro golfer wants more compression and used an 80 or 90 compression and he gets maxim spin and distance form the softer ball and also more backspin to give lift and stop on the green.
what the study was pointing out was if you take almost all the top brand balls and use "iron man" to hit the balls there is only a few feet of difference from all the balls used.
there is a great deal of difference with a poorer swing we don't maintain the speed through impact and it the ball sticking to the club face for that fraction of a second that changes the balls response.

that why you can have a guy with a slower swing speed hit the ball longer. even though distance depends of swing speed. it also has to take in where on the club face the ball is hit, is the club face is open or closed a little and if the swing is across the ball or square.
that all have to be taken into the equation and it was only the development of the new version of Iron man that they could reproduce the slowing swing through impact.
i do think it has an effect as i have seen people with fast swing but no better distance than someone with a slow speed. there could be other reasons but i do think that the handicap player does not maintain the speed of the club through impact like the pro golfers can, and i don't just mean drivers i mean all clubs, wedges as well. i think there quality of striking comes form sweet spot hitting and not losing as much speed through the impact zone.
i wish i knew how we handicap players could do that and I'm still looking to see and understand why we lose more speed through the impact zone.
to me it makes sense if you only lose 10 mph through impact then you will hit longer than a guy with the same swing speed but loses 20 mph through impact. and if that guy loses 50% more speed than you at impact then it also makes sense that he might also compress the ball less too and that could also add to his loss of distance and to his distance not being constant.
i think more research should be done and i have looked for it and BrianW has been a big help in many of his great links to golf information sites.
i don't know if you remember the rubber "wonder balls" you use to get when a child that bounced so high in the air, if you hit on with a golf club it went about 400 Yards. and it was all to do with the compression of the rubber.
its something I'm going to keep trying to find more about and if i do i will let you know and post the site here too.
cheers
bill

[MaxxC]

Re: Increasing Distance

Bill thanks for your reply.

The initial impact is what compresses the ball. True the ball will stay on the club face for about 3/4 of an inch and the ball will continue to compress. However the compression of ball is determined by impact. Were talking about a time frame of less then 1/2000th of a second from impact until the ball releases from the club face.
High speed photo will show the ball continuing to compress as it rides the club face. However this continued compression has been determined at the point of impact. Its merely riding the club face as it continues to compress from the initial impact.

Bill I don't quite follow what you are saying in the second paragraph. Sure a ball will lose distance if the ball is not hit in the sweet spot and different gall balls and compressions will go different distances. I don't see where this negates my contention in the first paragraph. That a ball direction distance has already been determined by initial impact.

I kind of believe the fast swing slow swing thing is an illusion. Your country club hack may look to be exerting every ouch of effort (swinging fast) and Fred Couples may look to be not exerting any effort (swinging slow). The point of impact tells a much different story as the fast swinging hack contacts the ball at 90mph while slow swinging Fred contacts it at 120 mph.

Thats another thing that I wonder about is if the article you read is true how can this be implemented in real life. No pros on tour yet with 90mph swings LOL

Best Wishes MaxxC

[bill reed]

Re: Increasing Distance

hi Maxx
not all the pro ladies have fast 120+ swings and many are still long hitters.
it the second part i was trying to say that even hitting the ball at 120 mph you will lose distance the more you hit away from the sweet spot. you still hit at the same speed and compress the ball the same but you lose distance.
i was trying to say that there are many things during the impact zone that effect the distance you hit and it's not just your swing speed. swing speed is one of the most important. i think one is that handicap players slow more when they contact the ball than pro golfers and one result is the the pro golfer gets more compression on the ball and as a result a cleaner strike through the impact zone.
what i have been think is maybe that the pros by swing so many times each day and hitting so many golf balls have not strengthened but more toned up the muscles of the fingers and wrists and forearms and that why they don't lose as much speed through the impact zone but thats just my idea.
i have only read one report about the loss of speed through the impact zone and i don't know if the report is true or false but i think it makes sense if you think about it. proving it is harder.
cheers
bill