How-To "Backspin on chips"

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

What? You think the principles of physics changes?

The same principles apply! It is not about clubface loft. It is about DIRECTION OF FORCE!

No it is not the same principle, the force vectors are completely different with the clubface and the billiard cue.

Alastair Cochran & John Stobbs published a book : Search for the Perfect Swing, the book gives a scientists perspective on the golf swing and the physics / ballistics of the golf ball, the project was supported and funded by the Golf Society of Great Britain. Chapter 23 of the book "The ballistics of Golf: How Spin and Flight Begin" Shows in great detail with many illustrations and scientific data how a golf ball is struck with lofted clubs and exactly how the ball reacts to the forces and vectors. These studies show conclusively that the ball is compressed and slides up the clubface from the very instant of impact. If you have the opportunity to read it then please do as it will clarify the physics for you.

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Even the Iron shot in that clip is a low spin, long iron, distance shot, not a spin shot.

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

I don't know what your purpose is with showing this video again.

As already established, the driver DOES compress the ball (slightly) against the tee. On top of that, Driver shots are meant to be UPWARD strikes to REDUCE spinning. The purpose of THIS topic is to MAXIMIZE spinning, so talking about swing trajectories that does the opposite is irrelevant.

Mox,

Do you honestly believe that a rubber tee can sustain and compress a golf ball against the the force of a driver at 3,000 psi thus creating additional spin?

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Even the Iron shot in that clip is a low spin, long iron, distance shot, not a spin shot.

What's that got to do with it, the ball reacts exactly the same way with every club, it's just that more loft will create more spin due to the more oblique blow.

Stop the picture of the iron just before impact then tell me how that clubface can hit down on that ball?

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

What's that got to do with it, the ball reacts exactly the same way with every club, it's just that more loft will create more spin due to the more oblique blow.

Wrong, wrong, wrong ... the loft has NO impact on spinrate. Only the direction of the force influences spin. Loft has impact on LAUNCH ANGLE!

Stop the picture of the iron just before impact then tell me how that clubface can hit down on that ball?

The forces applied by a lofted club that moves in a forward and downward direction, are forces directed forward and downward. NO MATTER THE LOFT!

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Do you honestly believe that a rubber tee can sustain and compress a golf ball against the the force of a driver at 3,000 psi thus creating additional spin?

Of course it can. Not as much as a downward strike on a hardpan lie, but yes, there are forces coming back from the tee impacting the ball travel on the driver face and causing the ball to spin.

Hence the use for Frictionless Tees.

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Wrong, wrong, wrong ... the loft has NO impact on spinrate. Only the direction of the force influences spin. Loft has impact on LAUNCH ANGLE!



The forces applied by a lofted club that moves in a forward and downward direction, are forces directed forward and downward. NO MATTER THE LOFT!

Mox! You said "the loft has NO impact on spin rate. Only the direction of the force influences spin. Loft has impact on LAUNCH ANGLE!"

Spin is created by the oblique blow of the clubface into the ball, the ball compresses onto the face, slides then rolls back up the clubface, the more oblique the blow (More loft) the more the sliding and rolling up the face creating more spin. The more oblique the blow the more the force is transferred into sliding and subsequent spin. That's why a lower lofted club creates less spin and more distance due to more force being imparted into the balls core, delofting the clubface will generate more distance with the same club. If your theory was correct then the ball would be imparted with the same spin rate from a driver and a lob wedge, only the launch angle would change.

OH! and Mox, lets keep this an academic debate and not transcend into using capital letters to shout out a reply please.

[bill reed]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Mox
thats why i said you scope the ball out the bunker, unless in a fairway bunker and you try and clip the ball before the sand. cant do that in our links fairway bunkers as there are all about 3 feet deep and the scope sand shot is the only way.

Mox you said, "the force applied by a lofted club that moves in a forward and downward direction, are forces directed forward and downwards, no matter the loft."

if loft don't matter then why does the ball leave the face of the club at an angle related to the clubs loft. and why does the more lofted club apply more spin rate to a ball if loft don't matter. if the ball did not run up the face why make the face bigger on the more lofted clubs. why not have all the club faces the same if you always hit the ball and it compresses with the ground the you don't need a bigger club face.
i don't think we will agree on this as i have to be shown something to really believe it and you have not shown me how you hit down on a golf ball with a lofted golf club, o do believe you could do it with a pool cue as it has a flat face and you can hit above the middle of the ball but you cant with a golf club, do you also think a pool ball compresses with a pull table?.

cheers
bill

[Yggdrasil]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Wow, you guys have gone nuts!

Since I started the thread, I guess I can give my 2 cents:

I say you obviously can "pinch" the ball to create spin, and give the following evidence:

Try getting spin with no grooves (won't happen). The grooves obviously grip the ball. (No arguments so far, I guess....)

Try getting spin with grooves, but from the rough. The groove grip the ball the same, but because they can't pinch the ball against the ground, (as from the fairway), less or no spin occurs.

Thanks for the tips though, they are great !!!

[bill reed]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Yggdrasil
the groves don't really add to the spin rate and are there to try and keep the grass of the face where it meets the ball. the reason you don't get as much back spine in the rough is that grass gets between the face and the ball and reduces the amount the ball runs up the face.
if you were to use a club with no groves from the fairway you would still get backspin, makers are always saying about there groves making more backspin on there new wedges but it more about the groves moving the rubbish between the ball and the face a bit like the groves on a car tier and the way it removes the water from the road and lets the main part of the tier say on the road, the golf club works in the same way. the deeper and wider the grove the more water or grass it removes from the face, thats why the R&A have limited the amount of depth and the distance of the groves and the distance from on grove to the other.
you may not remember the old dimples clubs the had punch marks like dimples on a ball and no groves and they were baned as they gave to much backspin. and they had no groves at all, i still have a old set of Johny Letters like that. 62 years old now the clubs not me lol.
think of the new drivers, most don't have any groves around the hitting area and the ball spins at a rate of 2000 to 3000 rpm.

cheers
bill

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Spin is created by the oblique blow of the clubface into the ball, the ball compresses onto the face, slides then rolls back up the clubface, the more oblique the blow (More loft) the more the sliding and rolling up the face creating more spin. The more oblique the blow the more the force is transferred into sliding and subsequent spin. That's why a lower lofted club creates less spin and more distance due to more force being imparted into the balls core, delofting the clubface will generate more distance with the same club. If your theory was correct then the ball would be imparted with the same spin rate from a driver and a lob wedge, only the launch angle would change.

First of all, I use capital letter to emphasize essential differences in and definitions. I could use bold, italics, underlining or color, but I use capitals!

Secondly, your theory above is completely false. Consider this: A driver hit with an upward trajectory results in a long, piercing, low spinning shot.
A driver hit - with the completely same loft - with a downward trajectory, results in a far short, ballooning shot.

Why? Because the downward strike pinches the ball and creates MORE spin, despite having the exact same loft on the club.

Again - loft has impact on launch angle, not on spin.

You can strike a 7 iron with as much spin as a wedge. You will be less likely to get it to spin back on the green due to two reason.

1) the interaction between ball and air during forward flight (drag), and
2) The lower trajectory creating a shallower landing angle, forcing the backspin to not only fight the friction of the green, but also the forward moment of the ball.
A wedge shot drops from the sky at a very steep angle, due to the higher launch angle, and thus does not have to fight forward momentum of the ball.


These data shows clearly, that a 6-iron spins the ball almost exactly as hard as a wedge and sometimes even harder, only with very different launch angles. Thus PROVING my theory, exactly to the point you expressed!

A driver, on the other hand, spins the ball a lot less, due to a different trajectory from the club head at impact!


Can we please agree, based on these facts, coming from tests with real balls, that loft has NO IMPACT on spin rate? Now try to run through your theories again!

[bill reed]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Mox
a driver of the fairway is hard to hit as the sweet spot is higher than the center of the the face making it almost imposable to hit a good driver off the fairway with the newer drivers, i have an older Ping zing driver i hit of the fairway often but it is the smaller head 350 and the sweet spot in in the center of the face making a shot of the fairway just a normal shot. its not a normal shot with the newer 460cc brivers as the ball sits to low and you cant hit it of the center of the face and have even less chance hitting the sweet spot. i hit my driver about 240 of the fairway and about 250/260 off the tee.
cheers
bill

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Mox
a driver of the fairway is hard to hit as the sweet spot is higher than the center of the the face making it almost imposable to hit a good driver off the fairway with the newer drivers, i have an older Ping zing driver i hit of the fairway often but it is the smaller head 350 and the sweet spot in in the center of the face making a shot of the fairway just a normal shot. its not a normal shot with the newer 460cc brivers as the ball sits to low and you cant hit it of the center of the face and have even less chance hitting the sweet spot. i hit my driver about 240 of the fairway and about 250/260 off the tee.
cheers
bill

What has that got do with this debate ???

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Bill is correct.

Grooves on a clubface do not create spin and there is sound scientific evidence to support this. All grooves do is wick away moisture just like the treads on a car tyre. A slick car tyre grips better in the dry just like a golf club.

[bill reed]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

A driver, on the other hand, spins the ball a lot less, due to a different trajectory from the club head at impact!


hi Mox
i was replying to your post and why there is a difference using a driver of the fairway to using it on a tee peg.

if you try and hit a new driver off the fairway you will find it very hard to get it up in the air. if you use a wedge you find it fly's high without you trying to make it do that. the reason is the loft. with the new driver the ball cant clime the face as the sweet spot is so high on the face and thats why its so hard to get in the air when hitting of the fairway and why you hit it high on a tee peg. anyone trying to hit a driver of the fairway will find this out using a big headed driver.
bill