How-To "Backspin on chips"

[Bogeygolfer19]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Interesting thread,in my opinion when you apply backspin to the ball you are contacting the ball below the equator. It is impossible to strike down on the ball in a fashion which impacts the ball above the equator, to do that then the angle of the shaft would have to be below your feet. Sqeezing the ball out of the turf is a good mental thought but in reality the club never does that.I have discussed this thread with a tour player and to apply spin requires the ball to ride up the club face. To get this right and zip the ball back you need god given talent because the margin of error is so precise.The three images provided by the previous poster is correct.Anyway what does it matter.
I learn more everytime I check into this site.You guys sure do provide some good advice and for me that is all this site is about. Improving your golf.

Best wishes to you all.

Bogeygolfer.

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

If the clubhead moves DOWN and FORWARD at the point of impact, it has NO relevance WHERE on the ball you strike it, nor the angle of the clubface, the force of impact WILL BE DOWN AND FORWARD.

It's physics 101!

Has anybody tried to kick a curling ball in soccer?

Say you kick with your right foot and what the ball to curl from right to left, where do you kick it? On the RIGHT side, with a force moving RIGHT and FORWARD. Is the resulting shot pulling to the left? No! It pushes to the right, then curls back to the left!

Look at this picture

That ball is kicked at a point that is on the right side of the ball and gets a right side spin - pushes out to the right and curls back to the left.

Again, the ball is struck RIGHT of center, with forces moving RIGHT and FORWARD, and pushes RIGHT before curling back left.

Similarly, a golf ball struck BELOW center, with forces moving DOWN and FORWARD, will be pushed DOWN, thus COMPRESSING against the immovable ground, and forward.

So claiming that you can't hit down because the striking points is below the equator of the ball Is completely FALSE!

Whether you believe that this is eventually the cause of the spin or not, I don't care, but stop saying that you can't hit down when striking the ball below the equator.

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

From this page:

The face of the club will then contact the surface of the golf ball just prior to reaching the bottom of the swing arc. As a result, the ball becomes trapped between the descending clubface and the ground. The ball compresses. Because the face of the clubhead is lofted, the ball - rather than be driven into the ground as a downward hit might imply - will spin backwards up the clubface, decompress (adding energy to its escape) and climb into the air. The angle at which the ball climbs (trajectory) will be directly related to the loft of the club we have chosen for the shot.

Ball is pushed down, can't move the planet, compresses against the ground, slides up the clubface, where friction causes the spin and decompression the speed.

[bill reed]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Max
your quote seems to agree with my thinking in that the ball spins up the club face and your quote said "the ball, rather than been driven into the ground as a downward hit might imply - will spin up the club face."
i take it from your quote that it to mean that the ball is not pushed down but spins up.
I'm sorry but i just don't agree with your idea that you can still hit down on the ball if your striking below the equator of the ball.
i have tried this at home on the table and you cant get any downward pressure on the ball even using a one iron with very little loft.
going by what you say the ball will have to travel down and forward a little before changing direction and then start spinning backwards up the club face. sorry but i just don't see that, in the slow film clip the ball instantly compresses on the face not going up or down and then starts to move up the club face before the sole of the club hits the ground, again your quote says "decompressing ( adding energy to its escape."
i just cant see how if the face hits below the middle of the ball how the ball can do anything but rise up.
i think we will have to agree that we both have different ideas and both think were right and wont convince the other of our views.
good discussion though Max.
cheers
bill

[Seattlepop]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Max
your quote seems to agree with my thinking in that the ball spins up the club face and your quote said "the ball, rather than been driven into the ground as a downward hit might imply - will spin up the club face."
i take it from your quote that it to mean that the ball is not pushed down but spins up.
I'm sorry but i just don't agree with your idea that you can still hit down on the ball if your striking below the equator of the ball.
i have tried this at home on the table and you cant get any downward pressure on the ball even using a one iron with very little loft.
going by what you say the ball will have to travel down and forward a little before changing direction and then start spinning backwards up the club face. sorry but i just don't see that, in the slow film clip the ball instantly compresses on the face not going up or down and then starts to move up the club face before the sole of the club hits the ground, again your quote says "decompressing ( adding energy to its escape."
i just cant see how if the face hits below the middle of the ball how the ball can do anything but rise up.
i think we will have to agree that we both have different ideas and both think were right and wont convince the other of our views.
good discussion though Max.
cheers
bill

I think you don't get it because, as mentioned earlier, you don't actually hit down on the ball. You are having difficulty separating the swing instruction from the result. The entire swing instruction is just that, no more, a swing instruction. You swing the club "AS IF" you were....(insert the "PRETEND" result here). No one is saying that the club actually hits down/traps/pinches, etc., the ball as the result of the properly executed swing.

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

You simply do not get it.

Angle of clubhead is irellevant. point of impact on the ball is irellevant. only thing relevant is the vector of the force applied from clubhead to ball, and since the clubhead moves down and forward, the vector WILL point down and forward.

That will trap the ball between clubhead and ground.

I'm not going into this discussion again, and you will never accept any evidence based on maths or physics anyway, so never mind that headcover talk!

Ouch! Rather tetchy there Mox, It was meant to be a joke. I have been debating the subject matter and do not need to use any personal slights. I am surprised that you feel this is necessary.

OK lets talk physics if you prefer. The force of the clubface at impact is approx 2,000 psi, now imagine a golf ball sitting on some soft grass and earth, then a force of 2,000 pounds is applied by the lofted clubface and the ball is compressed between this and the earth. Under these conditions the ball would take the route of least resistance, that would not be to compress against the hard clubface but to bury it's self into the soft ground. A driver has loft, how does the ball spring off the driver's face at such high speed if there is no grass or earth for it to compress against?

The force vectors at impact are bi-directional due to the fact that a wedge or prism is being pushed under the ball, these vectors are both horizontal and vertical resulting in the ball sliding backwards up the clubface.

I put it to you there is no physical or mathematical evidence to support the theory of pinching the ball. I do however support the theory that it is a good swing thought to imagine the ball being pinched as this will promote a ball turf contact, even if turf pinching does not actually happen.

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

If the clubhead moves DOWN and FORWARD at the point of impact, it has NO relevance WHERE on the ball you strike it, nor the angle of the clubface, the force of impact WILL BE DOWN AND FORWARD.

It's physics 101!

Has anybody tried to kick a curling ball in soccer?

Say you kick with your right foot and what the ball to curl from right to left, where do you kick it? On the RIGHT side, with a force moving RIGHT and FORWARD. Is the resulting shot pulling to the left? No! It pushes to the right, then curls back to the left!

Look at this picture

That ball is kicked at a point that is on the right side of the ball and gets a right side spin - pushes out to the right and curls back to the left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzC1aIQQNz8

Again, the ball is struck RIGHT of center, with forces moving RIGHT and FORWARD, and pushes RIGHT before curling back left.

Similarly, a golf ball struck BELOW center, with forces moving DOWN and FORWARD, will be pushed DOWN, thus COMPRESSING against the immovable ground, and forward.

So claiming that you can't hit down because the striking points is below the equator of the ball Is completely FALSE!

Whether you believe that this is eventually the cause of the spin or not, I don't care, but stop saying that you can't hit down when striking the ball below the equator.

It only pushes forward due to the initial velocity overpowering the tilted axis that the ball is spinning on. As the forward velocity slows the side spin will become dominant and start the ball turning. This is exactly the same phenomenon as hooking or slicing a golf ball, it has nothing to do with compressing it into the ground.

If you hit a ball out of a fairway bunker the ball has to be struck clean, it will then project forwards, there is no way that it gets compressed into the soft sand to propel it's self forward.

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Max
your quote seems to agree with my thinking in that the ball spins up the club face and your quote said "the ball, rather than been driven into the ground as a downward hit might imply - will spin up the club face."
i take it from your quote that it to mean that the ball is not pushed down but spins up.
I'm sorry but i just don't agree with your idea that you can still hit down on the ball if your striking below the equator of the ball.
i have tried this at home on the table and you cant get any downward pressure on the ball even using a one iron with very little loft.
going by what you say the ball will have to travel down and forward a little before changing direction and then start spinning backwards up the club face. sorry but i just don't see that, in the slow film clip the ball instantly compresses on the face not going up or down and then starts to move up the club face before the sole of the club hits the ground, again your quote says "decompressing ( adding energy to its escape."
i just cant see how if the face hits below the middle of the ball how the ball can do anything but rise up.
i think we will have to agree that we both have different ideas and both think were right and wont convince the other of our views.
good discussion though Max.
cheers
bill

THE BALL IS pushed down!

The ball ONLY spins up the clubface BECAUSE it can't move into the ground. It compresses and REACTS to the force applied (heard of equal and opposite reaction - Newton's 3rd law of motion?)

IF the ball had been suspended in the air, and you were to hit it below the equator with a lofted clubface in a DIRECTLY FORWARD direction, IT WOULD NOT SPIN up the clubface at all!!!

That is also why, when you hit UP with the driver, you get less spin, and also why the ball balloons if you hit down with a driver.

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

OK lets talk physics if you prefer. The force of the clubface at impact is approx 2,000 psi, now imagine a golf ball sitting on some soft grass and earth, then a force of 2,000 pounds is applied by the lofted clubface and the ball is compressed between this and the earth. Under these conditions the ball would take the route of least resistance, that would not be to compress against the hard clubface but to bury it's self into the soft ground. A driver has loft, how does the ball spring off the driver's face at such high speed if there is no grass or earth for it to compress against?

The force vectors at impact are bi-directional due to the fact that a wedge or prism is being pushed under the ball, these vectors are both horizontal and vertical resulting in the ball sliding backwards up the clubface.

I put it to you there is no physical or mathematical evidence to support the theory of pinching the ball. I do however support the theory that it is a good swing thought to imagine the ball being pinched as this will promote a ball turf contact, even if turf pinching does not actually happen.

This is now getting ridiculous.

The ball springs off the driver face because of compression due to the FORWARD vector, not because of the DOWNWARD vector.
It SPINS as a result of the downward vector.

You hit UP (or at the very least "less down") with the driver and get (surprise!) less spin. What happens if you hit down with the driver? More spin!

Odd, isn't it, since hitting UP effectively INCREASES loft, while hitting DOWN will DECREASE loft.

So now LESS loft means MORE spin, right ??

Of course not.

Loft affects launch ANGLE, not spin. Directional force affects spin. And yes - as already mentioned earlier in this topic, balls compress against the tee as well, which is why some companies develop "Zero Friction" tees, which reduce that compression and thus reduce spin (and gains you distance).

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

It only pushes forward due to the initial velocity overpowering the tilted axis that the ball is spinning on. As the forward velocity slows the side spin will become dominant and start the ball turning. This is exactly the same phenomenon as hooking or slicing a golf ball, it has nothing to do with compressing it into the ground.

If you hit a ball out of a fairway bunker the ball has to be struck clean, it will then project forwards, there is no way that it gets compressed into the soft sand to propel it's self forward.

Once again, the FORWARD motion comes from the FORWARD vector.

Can you get the same spin from the fairway bunker as you can from the fairway? Or Hardpan?

No, you can't!

Why?

Because there is less compression against the ground, resulting in less motion up the clubface and thus less spin.

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

THE BALL IS pushed down!

The ball ONLY spins up the clubface BECAUSE it can't move into the ground. It compresses and REACTS to the force applied (heard of equal and opposite reaction - Newton's 3rd law of motion?)

IF the ball had been suspended in the air, and you were to hit it below the equator with a lofted clubface in a DIRECTLY FORWARD direction, IT WOULD NOT SPIN up the clubface at all!!!

That is also why, when you hit UP with the driver, you get less spin, and also why the ball balloons if you hit down with a driver.

Incorrect.

The ball moves up the clubface due to the loft. The clubface with loft is like driving a wedge under the ball, the mass of the clubface is greater than that of the ball so the ball has to compress and move upwards.

If the ball was suspended in the air it would absolutely slide and spin up the clubface, just like a ball on a tee.

Hitting up on a ball with a driver reduces the effective loft, that is why less spin is created. If you hit down with a driver you create more loft, that is what makes the ball spin more. Ballooning is caused where the ball is struck below it's equator with drivers top edge, this creates massive amounts of spin.

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Once again, the FORWARD motion comes from the FORWARD vector.

Can you get the same spin from the fairway bunker as you can from the fairway? Or Hardpan?

No, you can't!

Why?

Because there is less compression against the ground, resulting in less motion up the clubface and thus less spin.

The reason you do not get more spin from a fairway bunker is due to using a club with less loft, also the clubface cannot be allowed to dig into the sand so the ball will tend to be thinned by contact at or above the equator, this will reduce spin like any thinned shot.

Ridiculous! Why do you need to use these terms? Argue your point on it's merits please.

[Bully306]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

I think the none believers are getting hung up on the ball compressing into the ground and seemingly squirting out in the direction of the green.

It doesn't do this squarely as there is loft on the club. And as there is loft there is no pressure from directly above so that is the direction of least resistence.

Compression occurs, however briefly and however lightly.

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Why would I use a less lofted club in a fairway bunker than I would from the fairway?

And sure, the club can dig into the sand - AFTER it makes contact with the ball - exactly like on the fairway.

Same club. Clean pick with a nice "divot". Fairway bunker v. Fairway. Which will spin more?

I'm sorry ... but when things are ridiculous, I tend to call them just that.

Anyway - it's quite apparent that I should never have jumped back into this discussion, since it is mindless repetition of what has already been discussed.

I can't be bothered anymore.

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Why would I use a less lofted club in a fairway bunker than I would from the fairway?

And sure, the club can dig into the sand - AFTER it makes contact with the ball - exactly like on the fairway.

Same club. Clean pick with a nice "divot". Fairway bunker v. Fairway. Which will spin more?

I'm sorry ... but when things are ridiculous, I tend to call them just that.

Anyway - it's quite apparent that I should never have jumped back into this discussion, since it is mindless repetition of what has already been discussed.

I can't be bothered anymore.

The fairway shot will spin more as you can contact the ball lower, I already explained that.

Knife and fork still in drawer, headcover still on driver, guess they will have to stay like that as I have not heard anything convincing. I agree with one thing though Mox, you shouldn't bother