Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

[Go Low]

Message deleted by Go Low

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
i still think that Hogans book the 5 fundamentals is one of the best teaching books not only for the grip and posture but for also explaining the swing plane.
i think for anyone that can't get to a teacher that book will start you of with the basics better than any other book i have read.

on one other point you say that using the lower body it wrong but that surely that depends on the type of swing you have, like me using the trevino system the lower body does conrol the swing,
i would say that most one plane swinger what you say is true but with my one plane swing it is not true and the movement of the hips control the tempo and timing of the swing. i have changed the swing a little from Trevino's system and don't use the power left arm any more and use Mindy Blake's reflex system, but the legs and hips do control my system of playing golf.
i know most other systems what you say is true in most cases by now all.
cheers
bill

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
if you look at the pictures of Richard Wax and you look at his hips and his hips slid, it does add forward motion and if you loom you will see both feet firmly o the ground till the ball well on its way and than and only then does he come up on the toes of his right foot. you will also see the the club head goes through the ball for a good 6 inches after making contact with the the ball and that is down to the hip shift and you will also see the right elbow has left the right hip as he has a push shot like Trevino and has that very open stance too, if you did not use your lower body in this type of swing then you would never be able to hit the ball with any power and you would require you upper body to spin more to try and get that power.
cheers
bill

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
his hips shift to the left about 6 inches and his left knee breaks to the target just the same at Trevino does.
if you hold back this hip shift in this type of swing then you lose so much power, i know as i have tried it.
it not just the legs but the body and arms that all add up to making the swing powerful, in this type of open stance swing you have to have a hip slid and and also let your arms react to what has happened in the backswing.
the whole basis of Mindy Blake's swing is in the reflex actions of the arms and hands and once your in the backswing you do nothing to control you hands or arms, you just let them react and it works really well.
i know what your saying and i agree with most types of swings what you say is right but in an open stance swing you cant swing around your spine without sliding your hips, if you did not slid your hips you would come into the ball from out to in, and with the open stance swing you have to use a push shot and that requires you to use your lower body so you have an in to out swing.

cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I have debated my belief many times on this site that the lower body plays a small part in generating head speed, that it's main job is to create stability and the arms and hands are the real speed generators.

I think Hogan said that the hips job in the downswing was to bring the upper body into a position where the right arm could power through impact, he said he would like three right arms to create power, he also went on to say that you should also hit with both arms.

[bill reed]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

hi Go Low
if us open stance swingers don't control our timing with our lower body then what do we time it with, remember we use a system of reflex arms where the arms and hands react to the movement of the body, if we don't start that movement with the body when what do we start it with.
with Trevino he starts his swing with the kick of his left knee first out and then it breaks to the target and thats before his arms start to move back down in the downswing.
the Mindy Blake-Lee Trevino swinger use there body to time there swing and i think like Brian that you need the use of legs and body to help add some power to the arms. i think you need it more in the Blake-Trevino type swing than in some one plane swing that you tend to swing in a barrel with little or no hip sway and it more an arms swing and the turning over of the wrists as you come in open to square to close with the club face. in the Trevino swing the club face is held square longer by the use of the hips and the push shot of both arms away from the body.
if you try and hit a push shot like Trevino with no hip sway then you would end up on your toes falling forward and if you try and power your arms into the ball you lose your timing and you need to rely on the body to help control it. it using the body to get the best out your arms and hands but letting you mind control them and not you trying to control them.
its a bit like throwing a stone you look where you want to throw and you do it, you never think of what your hand and arm are doing or how you had moved the weight of your body.
with the Blake system you let your body control the swing and your arms and hands react to your body's movement, not the other way.
Mindy Blake's system works as does Lee Trevino's and both say they control the swing with the body and i know that how i do it and its easy to do and works well.
i do remember the old way i use to play and i use to play a draw and i had very little body movement till after impact and thats when my right foot lifted and i turned my wrists over but that is like night and day to the way i swing now and there not all all alike in any way.
cheers
bill

[golfndawg]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I've been through alot of internet golf tips/videos, and forums to personal instruction and today I believe I saw what you (Go Low) mean by weight shift, I've gotten so caught in right shoulder back and then down (which is good) and then the hip bump etc. and staying behind the ball that I might have created more tilt, I can't stay on top of it like that....If you are saying on the DS that the whole body makes a move left not just the lower half then I get it,if not than I will go back and read somemore....

[golfndawg]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Chessbum posted this on another thread, but I'm going to show pretty much exactly what I do and what I'm trying to get to......at the start of the clip (me) the next part what I want.

Merry-go-round drill on the bottom right
http://www.mytpi.com/mytpi05/ask/qadetail.asp?xid=710

[golfinguy28]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

here is a question Go low. What muscles do you think create the most power?

[GregJWillis]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

I know....the legs.

If I was to swing with just my shoulders, arms and hands alone, I would probably hit a driver 200 yds.

If I get to add my legs and hips, I get 300. But the key here is that I don't add my legs last in the DS, I add them first from the top. And everything else goes in sequence...legs, hips, torso, shoulders, arms and hands last.

It sure feels like my arms and hands do all the work though because they are moving the fastest into impact, they are resisting to the most force trying to keep the club in control. It gets pretty heavy holding onto a club being swung that hard.

What's interesting is what is involved in getting that that extra 100 yards. If I was to only use my lower body as a support to the upper only attack, I still only get about 220...10% more. That basically only allows a slightly wider range of movements.

But if I was to start the swing using the legs and hips first, this has a wonderful affect. It does two significant things: It adds rotational acceleration and it allows the upper body to relax a bit more for better control.

I might be able to squeak out a 225 yarder if I really had to with just my upper body, but I would not be in control, and this is not the objective here...balance of power and control is.

By allowing the lower body the lead movement and letting the upper follow, I get the desired length and control to find my ball after hitting it.

[pnearn]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

The lower body should do nothing but support the upper body's movements. It does not control nor does it add any (minuscule at most) power and speed to the golf swing. Hogan, and most other teachers, tout that much of their clubhead speed and power comes from their lower body (i.e. hip turn, core turn), which is not true - almost all clubhead speed is generated by the upper right side of the body and straightening of the right arm levers. There should not be any pullers, which would be the case from turning or rotating the hips, and suggesting there is - is incorrect.

Resptecfully I completely disagree with you! .. IMHO the bigger muscles of the arms, legs and back should power the swing and the arms/hands should do little else but grip lightly and hang on. You can go further and "edcuate your hands" to know where they are as you are turning but I have no doubt that the thought of 'hitting' with the right hand killed my swing for 5 years and it was only when I learnt to take the upper body totally out of it did I really feel the effortless power of just letting my body hit the ball and have my arms sling through the ball as a result of them being turned by my upper body - as a result of that being turned by the lower body - in sequence

You are , I think, describing a 'hitters' swing with angled hinge, with the puck type of release, that Bill and I think Brian use with good success. Many others (inc Tiger, Jack etc) are swingers who use their body to turn - thats why Tiger struggles with going right as his lower body turn is too fast and his arms dont catch up

Personally I think you have two pivots - the backswing pivot and the downswing piviot feeling left arm connection and extension as much as you can. When I learnt to hit the ball with my downswing piviot and stopped pulling down, swinging, whatever with my upper body (chest, hands and arms) my ball striking became much better and much more consistent

On the downswing pivot (provided you have set behind the ball), your hips move a little left and then up, the left leg posts up, the lower body turns, the right shoulder goes down, then out and then - around all around a still head - and your arms get whipped though the ball with a flat left wrist. The minute I used my upper body my hands cast, my shoulder comes around then down and I have an upper body dive

Im not saying your ideas are wrong - hitting is a valid pattern but its not the only one. Swinging is better for a lot of people - myself included

[pnearn]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

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Tiger's lower body used to race ahead of his upper because he was too upright, causing him to get "stuck, " ( I hate the expression) and blocking the ball to the right. (Off plane right) More recently, he has flattened his backswing, starts his arm downswing by moving the hands BACK, then DOWN, then OUT to the ball and his lower body movement is obviously much less than before (Hank ). When you watch the NIKE commercial of Tiger in slo-motion, you should notice than while the lower body definitely moves forward at the start of the downsing, it is not excessive andNOT a conscious action.
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Again I dont agree with this. Watch a slow mo swing of Tiger or any other PGA pro. Their hips are shifting and clearing left BEFORE the backswing has even completed - they are actually leaving their hands at the top as the lower body turn begins. Tiger says as much himself as he now hangs on more with his forearms as he turns. He also now has the upper body sqaut.

This is a good read .. Tiger pushes right when he slides too far and doesnt turn quickly enough i.e. too much axis tilt

http://www.theefficientgolfer.com/anal-tiger-woods.html

I am 99% sure Tiger does not start his downswing with his hands

[pnearn]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

GoLow

Genuine questiom re power. Whats your view on Paul Wilson and his powerless arms theory and how power is really generated

http://www.golftipsmag.com/instructi...g-machine.html

[Neil18]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Again I dont agree with this. Watch a slow mo swing of Tiger or any other PGA pro. Their hips are shifting and clearing left BEFORE the backswing has even completed - they are actually leaving their hands at the top as the lower body turn begins. Tiger says as much himself as he now hangs on more with his forearms as he turns. He also now has the upper body sqaut.

This is a good read .. Tiger pushes right when he slides too far and doesnt turn quickly enough i.e. too much axis tilt

http://www.theefficientgolfer.com/anal-tiger-woods.html

I am 99% sure Tiger does not start his downswing with his hands

Tigers hips may be shifting and clearing at the start of the downswing, but not because he's physically turning his hips.

From the top of your swing, move your left knee out toward the target. Your hips have to follow. They're attached.

Part of the reason so many people swing OTT is they have no patience to allow their lower body to "set" to take the ever increasing speed of the arms in the downswing.

No set to prepare for the speed = ugly lunge with top half/OTT/get ahead of the ball. Set the legs first then swing away. If your left leg is out toward the target from underneath your body, you can swing pretty hard and in balance with your dominant side.

[pnearn]

Re: Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Dont take this the wrong way but its wrong to claim any swing type is 'scientifically incorrect'. Is Furkys swing scientifically correct? Is Trevinos?

I could go Google a hundred articles or cite a hundred teachers/players on why turning the toros is 'scientifically correct' and using the hands is 'incorrect' but I wont !

There is no right and wrong way. There is the way that works best for a individual. People are different shapes and sizes. Therefore some may benefit from your method, some may not (me included) but I think its disingenous to claim there only one 'correct' way

I'll now bow out !