Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

[redsox]

Lets have a good discussion on one of the most debated fundamentals in the golf swing. Hopefully we can all learn a lot.

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

OK, I think I have given my views on this many times. To start the ball rolling (No intended pun ) I have to say that the golf swing uses both body and arms, I think the body is reactive and the arms proactive. Only the arms and hands have the ability to place the club onto the ball, on plane, at the appropriate speed and direction, the body can only support and assist the action.

[AvidGolfer]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

Lets have a good discussion on one of the most debated fundamentals in the golf swing. Hopefully we can all learn a lot.

There are different schools of thought on this.

Instructors that advocate an arm dominated swing include: Jim Flick and Bob Toski.

Instructors that advocate a body dominated swing include: Jimmy Ballard, Michael Hebron, and Jim Mclean (according to Harry Hurts III in How to Learn Golf).

Instructors that advocate a mixed method that involves the arms and body working in sync include: Butch Harmon, David Leadbetter, and Rick Smith. (I believe Jim Mclean could fit in this catergory as well).

I have to say that the golf swing uses both body and arms, I think the body is reactive and the arms proactive.

My opinion differs. I believe that a good golf swing has the two (body and arms) working together in sync (the mixed method), and I also believe if the golfer keeps the upper arms connected to the chest the two can move in sync with the arms simply going along for the ride (body method). I believe the arm dominated method to be the weakest and least reliable of the three.

I believe if you look at the majority of successful tour pros you will see the arms and body moving together, and not one out racing or leaving behind the other.

Below are pictures of the pros:

The center of the chest facing the arms as the club goes back:
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2...odysynczh7.jpg

and again on the down and through swing:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9...yncdownct5.jpg

Here is one (with Ernie Els) showing the relationship of the chest, arms, hands, and club during the swing:
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4...elationje5.jpg

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

There are different schools of thought on this.

Instructors that advocate an arm dominated swing include: Jim Flick and Bob Toski.

Instructors that advocate a body dominated swing include: Jimmy Ballard, Michael Hebron, and Jim Mclean (according to Harry Hurts III in How to Learn Golf).

Instructors that advocate a mixed method that involves the arms and body working in sync include: Butch Harmon, David Leadbetter, and Rick Smith. (I believe Jim Mclean could fit in this catergory as well).



My opinion differs. I believe that a good golf swing has the two (body and arms) working together in sync (the mixed method), and I also believe if the golfer keeps the upper arms connected to the chest the two can move in sync with the arms simply going along for the ride (body method). I believe the arm dominated method to be the weakest and least reliable of the three.

I believe if you look at the majority of successful tour pros you will see the arms and body moving together, and not one out racing or leaving behind the other.

Below are pictures of the pros:

The center of the chest facing the arms as the club goes back:
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2...odysynczh7.jpg

and again on the down and through swing:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9...yncdownct5.jpg

Here is one (with Ernie Els) showing the relationship of the chest, arms, hands, and club during the swing:
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4...elationje5.jpg

I am not saying anything about the arms needing to outrace the body or the arms not working in sync with the body. I do believe it is important for the arms to stay in the middle of the chest though most of the swing.

What I am saying is that the body cannot properly present the club to the ball, this must be done by controlling the arms. The body has to move in anticipation of and reaction to the swing of the arms, the brain is capable of synchronising these body maneuvers without too much conscious thought. Golf seems to be the only ball sport or swinging action where so much emphasis is placed on how to move the body. I sincerely believe that most aspiring golfers progress is stunted by this unnecessary fixation with controlling the movement of the legs, hips and torso.

[AvidGolfer]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

What I am saying is that the body cannot properly present the club to the ball, this must be done by controlling the arms.

I disagree: In my own experience (being a decent player myself) I have found my best ball striking rounds (including a 6-under 66, and fresh in my memory: 5-under 67 today) I make zero attempt to control my arms.

My feel is of my chest turning away from the target (turning around my spine) on the backswing, and the upper arms simply going along with my rotating chest (no conscious nor independent arm movement). On the downswing, again, no independent arm use. The feeling on the downswing being the hips clearing, and front shoulder separating from the chin. In my mind the big stable muscles of my body are delivering the club to the ball, and I do nothing with my arms, wrists, and hands.

Again, anyone who is a believer in using the arms is welcome to do so, and will find support in Jim Flick and Bob Toski. I have no problem with people who choose to support the arm movement school of thinking, but I do have a problem with statements saying people cannot use the body to make the swing and that they should be controlling the arms. That I believe can do as much, if not more, harm as propagating the myths to keep the head down and drive the legs (neither of which is present in the games of the majority of tour players today).

[jamesh]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

I have video of my hands and arms out racing my body in my downswing. I can tell you with a great degree of certainty that, in addition to it being ugly, my ball always goes to the right! (I am a lefty) I think in unison, with the body (hips) clearing before the hands is the way to go. The jury is in, on this one!

jamesh

[cyc53870]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

The body must be the source of power or else how can a 127 pounder like Lorena Ochoa hit the ball 290 yards?


Still and all, is a "late hit" involved for more power???

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

The body must be the source of power or else how can a 127 pounder like Lorena Ochoa hit the ball 290 yards?


Still and all, is a "late hit" involved for more power???

People can hit a ball that far on their knees. How do they do that?


Ben Witter hitting 300 yard drives
Not much lower body power in this swing!

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

I disagree: In my own experience (being a decent player myself) I have found my best ball striking rounds (including a 6-under 66, and fresh in my memory: 5-under 67 today) I make zero attempt to control my arms.

My feel is of my chest turning away from the target (turning around my spine) on the backswing, and the upper arms simply going along with my rotating chest (no conscious nor independent arm movement). On the downswing, again, no independent arm use. The feeling on the downswing being the hips clearing, and front shoulder separating from the chin. In my mind the big stable muscles of my body are delivering the club to the ball, and I do nothing with my arms, wrists, and hands.

Again, anyone who is a believer in using the arms is welcome to do so, and will find support in Jim Flick and Bob Toski. I have no problem with people who choose to support the arm movement school of thinking, but I do have a problem with statements saying people cannot use the body to make the swing and that they should be controlling the arms. That I believe can do as much, if not more, harm as propagating the myths to keep the head down and drive the legs (neither of which is present in the games of the majority of tour players today).

You continue to misrepresent my views. I started this thread with the statement "I have to say that the golf swing uses both body and arms" I do not say that any controlling thoughts be used in the swing, I do say that the arms and hands need educating more than the body to deliver the club correctly to the ball, I also say that the arms and body should work in unison. I do say that too much emphasis is placed on body mechanics by many instructors, I believe the body will take care of it's self. 3Skills is a testement to this process.

I am a proponent of the one plane swing which is very much an arms controlled golf swing. This video from Jeff Ritter explaining his swing is very much in tune with my thoughts.

[jbrunk]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

People can hit a ball that far on their knees. How do they do that?


Ben Witter hitting 300 yard drives
Not much lower body power in this swing!

You don't think his core is powering this move?

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

You don't think his core is powering this move?

No, I don't think it does, I don't think the core powers anyone's move come to that.

You cannot produce speed where there is no speed of a moving body part.
The hips move less than 2 miles per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
The lower body can and does rotate independent of the upper body.
Rotary motion of the lower body leading the downswing causes the shoulders to move out of plane.
Rotation of the hips as the start of the downstroke puts great torque (around 200 lbs) on the lower lumbar spine.
Upper body rotation is less than one mile per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
Calculation of the inside moving the outside shows that body rotation can account for a maximum of around 5 miles per hour of club head speed. Because the lower body is moving independent of the upper body, the actual numbers will be less.
The arms (from muscular contraction) are capable of moving at speeds between 20 and 30 miles per hour.
The hands (from wrist action -- extension and rotation) are capable of obtaining the highest speed in the human body. The hands from forearm and triceps contraction is the bodies only high speed moving part.
The greater percentage of high speed movement of objects comes from high speed hand and wrist action (swinging a golf club, swinging a baseball bat -- watch what moves the fastest hitting a home run -- throwing a football, a baseball, or a javelin).

[jambalaya]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

There are different schools of thought on this.

Instructors that advocate an arm dominated swing include: Jim Flick and Bob Toski.

Instructors that advocate a body dominated swing include: Jimmy Ballard, Michael Hebron, and Jim Mclean (according to Harry Hurts III in How to Learn Golf).

Instructors that advocate a mixed method that involves the arms and body working in sync include: Butch Harmon, David Leadbetter, and Rick Smith. (I believe Jim Mclean could fit in this catergory as well).



My opinion differs. I believe that a good golf swing has the two (body and arms) working together in sync (the mixed method), and I also believe if the golfer keeps the upper arms connected to the chest the two can move in sync with the arms simply going along for the ride (body method). I believe the arm dominated method to be the weakest and least reliable of the three.

I believe if you look at the majority of successful tour pros you will see the arms and body moving together, and not one out racing or leaving behind the other.

Below are pictures of the pros:

The center of the chest facing the arms as the club goes back:
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2...odysynczh7.jpg

and again on the down and through swing:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9...yncdownct5.jpg

Here is one (with Ernie Els) showing the relationship of the chest, arms, hands, and club during the swing:
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4...elationje5.jpg

When I look at your pictures I see at the top of the swing for the most part: Right hand even with the back shoulder, right forearm just outside the back shoulder, left arm across the body because of course the left and right hand are connected. I've always been a little bothered by the arms in front of the chest explanation. What am I missing here? It seems to me that both arms do not stay in front of the chest in the backswing. So what really is the goal?

[jambalaya]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

I disagree: In my own experience (being a decent player myself) I have found my best ball striking rounds (including a 6-under 66, and fresh in my memory: 5-under 67 today) I make zero attempt to control my arms.

My feel is of my chest turning away from the target (turning around my spine) on the backswing, and the upper arms simply going along with my rotating chest (no conscious nor independent arm movement). On the downswing, again, no independent arm use. The feeling on the downswing being the hips clearing, and front shoulder separating from the chin. In my mind the big stable muscles of my body are delivering the club to the ball, and I do nothing with my arms, wrists, and hands.

Again, anyone who is a believer in using the arms is welcome to do so, and will find support in Jim Flick and Bob Toski. I have no problem with people who choose to support the arm movement school of thinking, but I do have a problem with statements saying people cannot use the body to make the swing and that they should be controlling the arms. That I believe can do as much, if not more, harm as propagating the myths to keep the head down and drive the legs (neither of which is present in the games of the majority of tour players today).

I would dearly love for everything you say to be true or at least I would love to have the proper understanding for what you are trying to say. When I look at the pictures you provided I see a couple of things that make your explanation hard to understand. At the top of the backswing the left arm of all of the players is even with the shoulders or slightly above. I don't see how it gets there without lifting the arms. Wrist hinge could be simple a result of gravity and a full shoulder turn. In the downswing, I can see how we could try and turn the arms off and just fling our arms around our bodies but is sure seems difficult to get our arms to finish properly without some really good torque going on.

I've gone back and forth between the arm vs. body concept. I want to believe the body concept because my arms are too active in my opinion. I want to be able too simply turn my chest and get the club into position in the backswing. How can I do that? I seem to have to guide my arms back with my chest turn.

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

When I look at your pictures I see at the top of the swing for the most part: Right hand even with the back shoulder, right forearm just outside the back shoulder, left arm across the body because of course the left and right hand are connected. I've always been a little bothered by the arms in front of the chest explanation. What am I missing here? It seems to me that both arms do not stay in front of the chest in the backswing. So what really is the goal?

Jamb,

They need to stay between the shoulders through most of the swing, they will have to lift above at the top of the backswing and follow through.

[jambalaya]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

No, I don't think it does, I don't think the core powers anyone's move come to that.

You cannot produce speed where there is no speed of a moving body part.
The hips move less than 2 miles per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
The lower body can and does rotate independent of the upper body.
Rotary motion of the lower body leading the downswing causes the shoulders to move out of plane.
Rotation of the hips as the start of the downstroke puts great torque (around 200 lbs) on the lower lumbar spine.
Upper body rotation is less than one mile per hour and therefore cannot produce speed.
Calculation of the inside moving the outside shows that body rotation can account for a maximum of around 5 miles per hour of club head speed. Because the lower body is moving independent of the upper body, the actual numbers will be less.
The arms (from muscular contraction) are capable of moving at speeds between 20 and 30 miles per hour.
The hands (from wrist action -- extension and rotation) are capable of obtaining the highest speed in the human body. The hands from forearm and triceps contraction is the bodies only high speed moving part.
The greater percentage of high speed movement of objects comes from high speed hand and wrist action (swinging a golf club, swinging a baseball bat -- watch what moves the fastest hitting a home run -- throwing a football, a baseball, or a javelin).

But of course the hand and wrist speed can do nothing without leverage. I can put the club behind the ball and move them quickly through ball and it will go nowhere. The body turn produces the torque to apply force to the ball. The weight of that force propels the ball. Everything works together to produce the force. The core is basically at the center of the axis of rotation so necessarily has a lower rate of rotational speed. The clubhead, being the furthest point out from the axis of roatation necessarily is moving faster. A small increase in the rotational speed of the core means a large increase in the clubhead speed. The wrist movement is kind of a whipping action I suppose. If everything is connected that movement just allows us to take advantage of the power available from roatation of the central core I think.