Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

[z_shakir]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

“Your golf instructor can tell you how to change and improve your swing, but sometimes your body just won't move that way," said Sarah Christensen, founder of Hole in One Pilates, based in Las Vegas. “Pilates techniques develop a solid core of strength with flexibility, stability, balance, alignment and posture -- all of the body requirements for the golf swing” says Christensen. The program also teaches golfers how to apply those positive attributes directly to the golf swing.

[jambalaya]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

I have not mentioned anything about flicking wrists or wrists alone in general?

I will say again: The body does play a part in the swing and has to work in sync with the arms, my point is that it is the arms and hands that control the club and generate most of the swing speed (Most of it).

The hands and arms definitely control the club, especially on the backswing. Without proper grip, hand and arm action we are not going to bring the club back on plane. I don't think body movement alone can lift the arms into position. On the downswing we can let gravity and centrifigual force do a lot of the work. Arms will drop and unfold and wrists will unhinge and uncup as we swing them around our body if we allow them. Sure, many people keep the wrists muscles turned on and include an active push through the hitting zone. In fact it is probably a natural tendency to do so to get that extra little hit at the ball. It's a release of some stored energy so I suppose it is an additive effect and could give a little extra speed to the club head. However that flick doesn't contain much power without the rotational speed you have already built up to that point.

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

The hands and arms definitely control the club, especially on the backswing. Without proper grip, hand and arm action we are not going to bring the club back on plane. I don't think body movement alone can lift the arms into position. On the downswing we can let gravity and centrifigual force do a lot of the work. Arms will drop and unfold and wrists will unhinge and uncup as we swing them around our body if we allow them. Sure, many people keep the wrists muscles turned on and include an active push through the hitting zone. In fact it is probably a natural tendency to do so to get that extra little hit at the ball. It's a release of some stored energy so I suppose it is an additive effect and could give a little extra speed to the club head. However that flick doesn't contain much power without the rotational speed you have already built up to that point.

It is in my opinion and understanding that the body adds around 15% of the swing speed, the rest is generated by the shoulders, arms and wrists, gravity adds almost nothing. As I have previously stated I think that many golfers progress is stunted by the belief that they should be actively forcing the body and using inactive arms to generate speed and distance. I also think this part of the debate is getting nowhere now and nothing new is being contributed by anyone so I will leave it at that.

[jambalaya]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

Anybody ever see this:

"According to David Tutelman, very little muscle swing power is normally produced by the arm/forearm/hands when the wrists finally uncock at waist level, and most of the swing power is the end-result of centrifugal forces set into play by torque forces applied at the central core hinge point. In fact, clubhead swing speed may be maximised if the arms/forearms/hands are totally passsive and very relaxed during the downswing, so that they do not interfere with the fluidity of the swing's centrifugal force action-evolution. In other words, one can think of the modern golf swing being actively powered by the central torso, while the arms/hands can be conceived to be passive agents that merely transmit the swing power to the clubshaft via a double-pendulum swing action. A golfer who swings in this manner is a "swinger" and I personally recommend that beginner golfers adopt the mental idea of becoming a "swinger". Some golfers who adopt the double pendulum swing action are known as "hitters" because they apply an additional amount of torque at the hand hinge point during the downswing. A "hitter" applies forearm/hand muscle power during the downswing in order to increase the amount of hand hinge torque force, so that it supplements the torque force generated at the central hinge point, and hopefully results in even greater clubhead speed. A "hitter" can only successfully accomplish this feat if he applies hand torque force at the correct downswing moment (starting when the clubshaft is about 60 degrees from the vertical) and in perfect synchrony with the centrifugal forces already in play. If the "hitter" hits from the start of the downswing, he may cast the club (release the "wrist lag" prematurely) from the top, which will decrease centrifugal force "F" by increasing swing radius "r", and this will actually decrease clubhead speed. Therefore, perfect timing is critical if one wants to become a successful "hitter" and a beginner golfer should first think of becoming a perfect "swinger", before he thinks of increasing his clubhead speed by also becoming a perfect "hitter". To successfully learn how to become a perfect "swinger", a golfer needs to have an in-depth understanding of the modern, total body golf swing."

[Neil18]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

Anybody ever see this:

"According to David Tutelman, very little muscle swing power is normally produced by the arm/forearm/hands when the wrists finally uncock at waist level, and most of the swing power is the end-result of centrifugal forces set into play by torque forces applied at the central core hinge point. In fact, clubhead swing speed may be maximised if the arms/forearms/hands are totally passsive and very relaxed during the downswing, so that they do not interfere with the fluidity of the swing's centrifugal force action-evolution. In other words, one can think of the modern golf swing being actively powered by the central torso, while the arms/hands can be conceived to be passive agents that merely transmit the swing power to the clubshaft via a double-pendulum swing action. A golfer who swings in this manner is a "swinger" and I personally recommend that beginner golfers adopt the mental idea of becoming a "swinger". Some golfers who adopt the double pendulum swing action are known as "hitters" because they apply an additional amount of torque at the hand hinge point during the downswing. A "hitter" applies forearm/hand muscle power during the downswing in order to increase the amount of hand hinge torque force, so that it supplements the torque force generated at the central hinge point, and hopefully results in even greater clubhead speed. A "hitter" can only successfully accomplish this feat if he applies hand torque force at the correct downswing moment (starting when the clubshaft is about 60 degrees from the vertical) and in perfect synchrony with the centrifugal forces already in play. If the "hitter" hits from the start of the downswing, he may cast the club (release the "wrist lag" prematurely) from the top, which will decrease centrifugal force "F" by increasing swing radius "r", and this will actually decrease clubhead speed. Therefore, perfect timing is critical if one wants to become a successful "hitter" and a beginner golfer should first think of becoming a perfect "swinger", before he thinks of increasing his clubhead speed by also becoming a perfect "hitter". To successfully learn how to become a perfect "swinger", a golfer needs to have an in-depth understanding of the modern, total body golf swing."

Thanks Jamb. Never seen this before.

I think there is some merit in it. However, I do believe that there is a "hitting" element in any swing. It's just that the strong hit should come from the trail arm at the elbow, not the forearm or wrist. Like a punching action. When boxing, boxers are told to punch through the head to the back of the skull. Hence when the glove contacts the head, the arm is still bent and in the process of extending.

If one were to try to box someone by fully extending the arm then swatting the wrist, then said boxer would be laughed out of the ring! This sort of hit in the golf swing producing nothing but a rapidly changing clubface angle and contains no power what-so-ever.

I think passive arms can be a confusing term. Passive arms, to me, means not trying to hit the ball with the previously mentioned slappy forearm and wrist action that so many goflers try to employ, especially from the top of the swing.

Somebody being told to have passive arms is probably a classic "hit from the top swatter" and will more than likely need to feel instead that his forearms and hands don't do anything from the top. Essentially, the engaged muscles within the arm in the downswing are probably the ones on the outside of the shoulders and the triceps and biceps. Getting active from the top with the arms in terms of changing the shape attained at the top of the swing only serves to add to the centrifugal force wanting to make the clubhead go away from the body.

The swing radius formed by the left arm takes care of the swinging element, and the right elbow (triceps and biceps attached) forms the punching final acceleration. I don't belive that a proper swing and hit can be attained by just turning the body and allowing this magical power that seems to be the modern fad appear from nowhere and suddenly get into the club at the right time.

The arms have to be moved. Just like the bat or the raquet. But at the right time and in the right way.

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

Thanks Jamb. Never seen this before.

I think there is some merit in it. However, I do believe that there is a "hitting" element in any swing. It's just that the strong hit should come from the trail arm at the elbow, not the forearm or wrist. Like a punching action. When boxing, boxers are told to punch through the head to the back of the skull. Hence when the glove contacts the head, the arm is still bent and in the process of extending.

If one were to try to box someone by fully extending the arm then swatting the wrist, then said boxer would be laughed out of the ring! This sort of hit in the golf swing producing nothing but a rapidly changing clubface angle and contains no power what-so-ever.

I think passive arms can be a confusing term. Passive arms, to me, means not trying to hit the ball with the previously mentioned slappy forearm and wrist action that so many goflers try to employ, especially from the top of the swing.

Somebody being told to have passive arms is probably a classic "hit from the top swatter" and will more than likely need to feel instead that his forearms and hands don't do anything from the top. Essentially, the engaged muscles within the arm in the downswing are probably the ones on the outside of the shoulders and the triceps and biceps. Getting active from the top with the arms in terms of changing the shape attained at the top of the swing only serves to add to the centrifugal force wanting to make the clubhead go away from the body.

The swing radius formed by the left arm takes care of the swinging element, and the right elbow (triceps and biceps attached) forms the punching final acceleration. I don't belive that a proper swing and hit can be attained by just turning the body and allowing this magical power that seems to be the modern fad appear from nowhere and suddenly get into the club at the right time.

The arms have to be moved. Just like the bat or the raquet. But at the right time and in the right way.

Good post Neil. Nice to hear from someone who thinks things through.

[pnearn]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

Thanks Jamb. Never seen this before.

I think there is some merit in it. However, I do believe that there is a "hitting" element in any swing. It's just that the strong hit should come from the trail arm at the elbow, not the forearm or wrist. Like a punching action. When boxing, boxers are told to punch through the head to the back of the skull. Hence when the glove contacts the head, the arm is still bent and in the process of extending.

If one were to try to box someone by fully extending the arm then swatting the wrist, then said boxer would be laughed out of the ring! This sort of hit in the golf swing producing nothing but a rapidly changing clubface angle and contains no power what-so-ever.

I think passive arms can be a confusing term. Passive arms, to me, means not trying to hit the ball with the previously mentioned slappy forearm and wrist action that so many goflers try to employ, especially from the top of the swing.

Somebody being told to have passive arms is probably a classic "hit from the top swatter" and will more than likely need to feel instead that his forearms and hands don't do anything from the top. Essentially, the engaged muscles within the arm in the downswing are probably the ones on the outside of the shoulders and the triceps and biceps. Getting active from the top with the arms in terms of changing the shape attained at the top of the swing only serves to add to the centrifugal force wanting to make the clubhead go away from the body.

The swing radius formed by the left arm takes care of the swinging element, and the right elbow (triceps and biceps attached) forms the punching final acceleration. I don't belive that a proper swing and hit can be attained by just turning the body and allowing this magical power that seems to be the modern fad appear from nowhere and suddenly get into the club at the right time.

The arms have to be moved. Just like the bat or the raquet. But at the right time and in the right way.

Yes, good post and I agree with most of it. In the "modern day" swing the backwswing is short and wide, attained by the synchronised turn of the body and the triangle formed by the arms. With proper grip tension the wrsts will hinge and the left arm rotate. When that rotation stops so should the backswing leaving a nice 3/4 length backswing with the hands a good distance from the head. The higher handicappers I play with do this to an extent but then try to keep swinging back or lifting with the arms which destroys width, collapses the wrists and leads to a reverse pivot

The downswing too should be a synchronised turn of the body and 'pull down' of the left arm so that it stays connected to the chest. I think the passive arms idea is good for people (like I used to) who go at it from the top with the right hand and shoulders and come OTT, cast and scoop. Personnally I dont think at all about my right hand (unless im deliberately hitting a draw and set up to do so) because if I do i'll pull it. I feel my body move left and the left arm come dow and extend out to the target. Again with light grip pressure I can trust my forearms will rotate and square the clubhead up. The extension down the target with my left hand gives me power - the right merely turns over in response to the body turn

I think everyone is different but Neils point about not oveusing the arms in the BS or DS is the key - its educating them to learn how they are moved in synchornisation with the rotating torso and how and when they can and should add power

[AvidGolfer]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

Here is a short video excerpt of Trevor Immelman advocating the abs as the driving force of the swing (similar to statements Greg Norman, Annika Sorenstam, Steve Elkington, and Nick Faldo have made in the past).

http://drop.io/TrevorImmelman

[bill reed]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

hi Golfingguy
if you look at the Ping man and the Iron Byron you will see the the two robots that are used to test clubs world wide both have passive wrists, both did try and motorize them but they found it did not work and gave a false result, the robots are used to tests clubs and balls of all makers and have motors to drive the shoulders and hip turn.
i do believe in passive arms and hands and think of it more a reflex action. the arms and hands react to the back swing and you do not need to try and control the hands or arms. since changing to this way of playing i have dropped 4 shots of my handicap. it is based on Mindy Blake reflex swing.
i really don't have to do anything after i set up to the ball, it all happen by its self after my forward press starts the swing.
pick up a golf club in one hand and swing it about a little. did it slip out your hand? no. did you have to think of how hard to hold the grip. no.
all you need to do is believe in your swing and let it happen, reflex. let the body and mind control your swing.
i think its like looking at the hole when you putt, if you let your mind judge the distance to the hole then you putt better but as soon as you try to control the distance your putting goes to hell.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

The more I think and read on this issue the more I am convinced it is a meaningless debate.

The important object in golf is the ball, it is quite a simple animal in that it gives not a hoot about the way the hips, legs, torso, shoulders, arms or wrists behave, it only has respect for the lump of metal that smashes it in the back.

The next item in the chain of events is the shaft, this directs the lumpy metal bit into the ball. The rest of the chain all the way back to the cerebral cortex have their part to play and as long as they generate suitable clubhead speed into the ball in the right direction. Active or passive arms, wrists(and all other bits) can work any way they like to achieve the desired output (and often they do).

So to conclude my point of view: Swing which ever bits you like in what order you like, but make sure the clubhead strikes the ball well

[kbp]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

I agree in principle, but there are certainly ways to return the lump of metal to the ball that are more repeatable and deliver more speed and accuracy than other ways.

As with everything, it's an individual matter. What level is a person at and what are their goals.

[Neil18]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

The more I think and read on this issue the more I am convinced it is a meaningless debate.

The important object in golf is the ball, it is quite a simple animal in that it gives not a hoot about the way the hips, legs, torso, shoulders, arms or wrists behave, it only has respect for the lump of metal that smashes it in the back.

The next item in the chain of events is the shaft, this directs the lumpy metal bit into the ball. The rest of the chain all the way back to the cerebral cortex have their part to play and as long as they generate suitable clubhead speed into the ball in the right direction. Active or passive arms, wrists(and all other bits) can work any way they like to achieve the desired output (and often they do).

So to conclude my point of view: Swing which ever bits you like in what order you like, but make sure the clubhead strikes the ball well

This sounds like it could be your last ever post, Bri!

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

This sounds like it could be your last ever post, Bri!

A sigh of relief from many eh?

[Neil18]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

A sigh of relief from many eh?

Well............I didn't wanna say................

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

Well............I didn't wanna say................

Say no more