Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

But of course the hand and wrist speed can do nothing without leverage. I can put the club behind the ball and move them quickly through ball and it will go nowhere. The body turn produces the torque to apply force to the ball. The weight of that force propels the ball. Everything works together to produce the force. The core is basically at the center of the axis of rotation so necessarily has a lower rate of rotational speed. The clubhead, being the furthest point out from the axis of roatation necessarily is moving faster. A small increase in the rotational speed of the core means a large increase in the clubhead speed. The wrist movement is kind of a whipping action I suppose. If everything is connected that movement just allows us to take advantage of the power available from roatation of the central core I think.

The core supplies stability, the arms supply the leverage to the wrists.

What produces the most clubhead speed, is it the rotation of the body or is it the release of the angle held in the wrists, driven by the inertia of the arms?

[jambalaya]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

The core supplies stability, the arms supply the leverage to the wrists.

What produces the most clubhead speed, is it the rotation of the body or is it the release of the angle held in the wrists, driven by the inertia of the arms?

The angle held in the wrists delays the impact allowing the clubhead to gain speed due to acceleration. The inertia of the arms is still driven by the rotation of the core to which the arms are attached. If you were to stop rotating the body the arms would quickly decelerate. The swing works best when the arms are a connected piece to the body working in unison.

[AvidGolfer]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

You don't think his core is powering this move?

I agree with you I don't think sufficent power can be created with out the use of the core.

When I look at your pictures I see at the top of the swing for the most part: Right hand even with the back shoulder, right forearm just outside the back shoulder, left arm across the body because of course the left and right hand are connected. I've always been a little bothered by the arms in front of the chest explanation. What am I missing here? It seems to me that both arms do not stay in front of the chest in the backswing. So what really is the goal?

Jamb,

They need to stay between the shoulders through most of the swing, they will have to lift above at the top of the backswing and follow through.

I agree that the hands (less so the arms) breifly travel out of the spot light of the chest at the top of the swing, and at the finish of the swing. I attribute this to the fact that the body is only capable of rotating so far (the legs being connected to the ground restricting the hips, and the hips and spine restricting the shoulders and back). The majority of the swing the arms and chest move in sync (and the upper arms, which connect to the shoulders, stay closest and deviate the least).

[bruin]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

there is no single correct way to swing a club , the only important bit is impact, the ball will only react to the moment of impact, it dos'nt care what happened before and after it's left the clubface it's dos'nt care what happens to the club.so whatever swing process you use to deliver the clubface to the ball ...... inside/ closing to square/ with max speed/ and hit sweetspot! you will hit a long slight draw.i have tried various methods and the only one that has worked for me is an arms/ wrist with the body going along for the ride.this has given me another 20 yards with every club , and all but eliminated the duff shot, still get the odd thin but but the 40 yard duff is gone.if i do not use a decent body turn then i hit left , if i don't release the club in time i hit right.this is work in progress and after 9months i am nearly there . i now enjoy my game , chat to the other players and don't loose my rag anymore!!!
because this works for me does not mean to say it will work for everybody else, i am slight build 50'ish and up till a year ago not very supple. i spend time stretching/ excercising / and building muscle strength.but i am not going to try and tell people that this is the only way to swing and everyone else is wrong , maybe that's a philosophy others on this site could adopt.

[jambalaya]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

there is no single correct way to swing a club , the only important bit is impact, the ball will only react to the moment of impact, it dos'nt care what happened before and after it's left the clubface it's dos'nt care what happens to the club.so whatever swing process you use to deliver the clubface to the ball ...... inside/ closing to square/ with max speed/ and hit sweetspot! you will hit a long slight draw.i have tried various methods and the only one that has worked for me is an arms/ wrist with the body going along for the ride.this has given me another 20 yards with every club , and all but eliminated the duff shot, still get the odd thin but but the 40 yard duff is gone.if i do not use a decent body turn then i hit left , if i don't release the club in time i hit right.this is work in progress and after 9months i am nearly there . i now enjoy my game , chat to the other players and don't loose my rag anymore!!!
because this works for me does not mean to say it will work for everybody else, i am slight build 50'ish and up till a year ago not very supple. i spend time stretching/ excercising / and building muscle strength.but i am not going to try and tell people that this is the only way to swing and everyone else is wrong , maybe that's a philosophy others on this site could adopt.

Jim Flick thinks of it your way basically and he is supposed to be a top instructor. Glad it works for you too.

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

This thread was opened asking people to join a debate on the subject matter, not by someone asking for help. It is normal in such a debate for participants to state their point of view, listen to others and if necessary defend their thinking or question other views. All quite healthy as long as this is done in a respectful manner.

Being opinionated on a considered subject is not wrong as long as you are prepared to allow others to be the same, challenging others opinions is also not wrong as long as it is the subject matter that is challenged and not the person.

If I genuinely believe something to be right then I will state it and make suitable arguments to defend my considered stance, if an opposing view can alter my stance then I will accept graciously.

For some reason many see it wrong to have considered opinions and to be prepared to debate them these days and that's a shame. In my opinion

[Neil18]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

Hi all,

Interesting comments so far. It is still, in my opinion, very perception based. Someone whose turn outraces his arms will need to feel more armsy earlier to synchronise the movements. Likewise someone who uses their arms too much will have to get the body turning better through impact.

Whichever point you start from, it's very easy to go from being armsy to turning too early and vice versa. The idea of practicing it is to learn to blend the arm swing with the body turn to allow the club to meet the ball with a cupped trailing wrist and a gradually accelerating clubhead. When done correctly, there should be absolutely no "swish" sound before the ball. It should all be at and after impact.

As far as individual body parts go, the torso can't move quick enough to propel the arms alone. If you just turn your body without doing anything with your arms you'll just look weird and the clubhead will still be on the ground. And the arms alone cannot hit through the ball without a good, continuous and gradual turn.

Effort has to be applied to both the turn and the arms to produce a connected and powerful golf swing. There's no two ways about it.

[bill reed]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

hi
i think it also depends on the type of shot you want to hit.
if you draw the ball then your will use the wrists more to bring the club face from open to closed through impact and you will have very little hip sway.
if you fade the ball then you will have a lot less wrist turn and you don't close the club face as much, you will also have much more hip sway with you open stance and this will often look like you have more body movement.
i think with the draw you think more about your arms and wrists and hands and your body acts in response to your arms. but with the fade you think more of off the legs and hips and let the arms act more in response to the body.
i think if you try and combine both you get into lots of problems just like you do is you try and combine parts of a one plane swing with a two plane swing and vise versa.
cheers
bill

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

But of course the hand and wrist speed can do nothing without leverage. I can put the club behind the ball and move them quickly through ball and it will go nowhere. The body turn produces the torque to apply force to the ball. The weight of that force propels the ball. Everything works together to produce the force. The core is basically at the center of the axis of rotation so necessarily has a lower rate of rotational speed. The clubhead, being the furthest point out from the axis of rotation necessarily is moving faster. A small increase in the rotational speed of the core means a large increase in the clubhead speed. The wrist movement is kind of a whipping action I suppose. If everything is connected that movement just allows us to take advantage of the power available from rotation of the central core I think.

The body core supplies stability. Lets turn your argument round: Address the ball with a club, now keep your arms straight out in between your chest and do not alter the wrists, rotate the club back and through by only using the rotation of your body, no arm or wrist manipulation. how far can you hit the ball? not far I bet. I can hold an 8 iron in my right hand only and with the slightest reactory move of my body hit the ball over 100 yards.

I have said many times now that the body does play a part in the swing and has to work in sync with the arms, my point is that it is the arms and hands that control the club and generate most of the swing speed (Most of it).

[cyc53870]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

Perhaps you have to use just about every muscle (especially fast-twitch) possible (and well-coordinated) in your whole body (including arms of course)!!!

[jambalaya]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

The body core supplies stability. Lets turn your argument round: Address the ball with a club, now keep your arms straight out in between your chest and do not alter the wrists, rotate the club back and through by only using the rotation of your body, no arm or wrist manipulation. how far can you hit the ball? not far I bet. I can hold an 8 iron in my right hand only and with the slightest reactory move of my body hit the ball over 100 yards.

I have said many times now that the body does play a part in the swing and has to work in sync with the arms, my point is that it is the arms and hands that control the club and generate most of the swing speed (Most of it).

I can definitely hit it further just rotating my body as you suggest than if I just flicked my wrists. The arms and wrists are levers that have to be at least meneuvered into position to strike the most efficient blow possible on the ball. Put your hands by your side and turn your body and the arms aren't going to effect much of anything. Yes, you can use your lever, that being the right arm in your case and hit the ball a fair distance. Using the turn of the body however adds power to the lever to help propel the ball further. Your wrist angle, the folding of your right arm all store some energy to be released on the ball but without the engine propeling the arms, that being the body turn, that energy is greatly limited. The rotational force used to hit the ball is provided by the body core and leverage is provided by your arms and wrists. A good swing cannot exist without both of these components working in unison and doing their job as efficiently as possible. The body does not control every single movement of the arms and wrists and the arms and wrists sure don't turn the body in my opinion. That is what I think is wacky in Jim Flick's philosophy.

The stability you talk about is provided by what connects us to the ground and gives us a stable base around which to turn. I would say that would be the legs primarily. Our rotational axis shifts in our swing from right leg on the backswing to front leg on the down swing. We have to be solidly connected to the ground and balanced to turn efficiently.

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

I can definitely hit it further just rotating my body as you suggest than if I just flicked my wrists. The arms and wrists are levers that have to be at least meneuvered into position to strike the most efficient blow possible on the ball. Put your hands by your side and turn your body and the arms aren't going to effect much of anything. Yes, you can use your lever, that being the right arm in your case and hit the ball a fair distance. Using the turn of the body however adds power to the lever to help propel the ball further. Your wrist angle, the folding of your right arm all store some energy to be released on the ball but without the engine propeling the arms, that being the body turn, that energy is greatly limited. The rotational force used to hit the ball is provided by the body core and leverage is provided by your arms and wrists. A good swing cannot exist without both of these components working in unison and doing their job as efficiently as possible. The body does not control every single movement of the arms and wrists and the arms and wrists sure don't turn the body in my opinion. That is what I think is wacky in Jim Flick's philosophy.

I have not mentioned anything about flicking wrists or wrists alone in general?

I will say again: The body does play a part in the swing and has to work in sync with the arms, my point is that it is the arms and hands that control the club and generate most of the swing speed (Most of it).

[jambalaya]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

This thread was opened asking people to join a debate on the subject matter, not by someone asking for help. It is normal in such a debate for participants to state their point of view, listen to others and if necessary defend their thinking or question other views. All quite healthy as long as this is done in a respectful manner.

Being opinionated on a considered subject is not wrong as long as you are prepared to allow others to be the same, challenging others opinions is also not wrong as long as it is the subject matter that is challenged and not the person.

If I genuinely believe something to be right then I will state it and make suitable arguments to defend my considered stance, if an opposing view can alter my stance then I will accept graciously.

For some reason many see it wrong to have considered opinions and to be prepared to debate them these days and that's a shame. In my opinion

By the way, to what or whom does this refer?

[BrianW]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

By the way, to what or whom does this refer?

This:

"i am not going to try and tell people that this is the only way to swing and everyone else is wrong , maybe that's a philosophy others on this site could adopt."

[jbrunk]

Re: Arm swing vs body swing-what about it

there is no single correct way to swing a club , the only important bit is impact, the ball will only react to the moment of impact, it dos'nt care what happened before and after it's left the clubface it's dos'nt care what happens to the club.so whatever swing process you use to deliver the clubface to the ball ...... inside/ closing to square/ with max speed/ and hit sweetspot! you will hit a long slight draw.i have tried various methods and the only one that has worked for me is an arms/ wrist with the body going along for the ride.this has given me another 20 yards with every club , and all but eliminated the duff shot, still get the odd thin but but the 40 yard duff is gone.if i do not use a decent body turn then i hit left , if i don't release the club in time i hit right.this is work in progress and after 9months i am nearly there . i now enjoy my game , chat to the other players and don't loose my rag anymore!!!
because this works for me does not mean to say it will work for everybody else, i am slight build 50'ish and up till a year ago not very supple. i spend time stretching/ excercising / and building muscle strength.but i am not going to try and tell people that this is the only way to swing and everyone else is wrong , maybe that's a philosophy others on this site could adopt.

You, no doubt had too much pivot and not enough arms. (Sounds like me) I bet if you can hit it a lick your downswing still starts from the ground up even though it may not 'feel' as such.