Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

[BrianW]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Go Low, you were more active here than me, I feel bad that others who did benifit from you now lose that. I won't post on here anymore if you return. I don't why I decided to challenge your views in the manner I did, sorry for that.

well, hope you get this and decide to come back.

take care

That was a very thoughtful and brave post.

You did post some interesting and thought provoking information, the site can be enriched by both of your views as long as they are civil.

[keiko]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Life is too short to limit one's perspective to a single viewpoint. I believe there is room here for all to agree and disagree without personal attacks.
I intend to continue here because I enjoy the interaction not because I think everyone agrees with me.
Disparity of viewpoints is healthy as long as everyone's agenda is honorable.

That was a very thoughtful and brave post.

You did post some interesting and thought provoking information, the site can be enriched by both of your views as long as they are civil.

[LowPost42]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

It may just be me but I see his left hip moving forward first while his arms are being carried along for the ride. To make that left hip move you have to push off the right foot.

Not necessarily - my swing is pull-pull; shoulder blade pulling going back (enabling a full shoulder turn) and obliques pulling which creates the left hip bump and turn - no pushing from the right. My right foot is barely off the ground at impact.

I see them hula girls wigglin' their hips with both feet planted.

[kbp]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

It may just be me but I see his left hip moving forward first while his arms are being carried along for the ride. To make that left hip move you have to push off the right foot.

You are seeing the result correctly, as most everyone does, but not the cause, IMO. You make that move by contracting the muscles of the trail side and the trail back. This is what Rory is doing. Then the pushing, after the drop, not causing the drop.

More clearly shown in this animation of Anthony Kim. He is pulling his right shoulder and back rib cage down to his right hip/butt with his side and lower back muscles. A push will not put those wrinkles in his shirt.

You can see and feel all of this by balancing with all your weight on your back leg and doing the bump, drop and turn. The action, the cause of the movement, the drivers, are the back and side.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

The problem is, the data supports what I'm saying. They study this stuff a lot.







You can see the amateur keeps their weight "centered" the most and hits it the shortest. The Touring professional has a near straight back to the arch of the right foot and then a straight to the arch of the front foot on the forward swing.

So clearly the better players do get their weight onto their right foot in the backswing. But more to our discussion, what takes the weight and makes it move forward?

Here is a golf swing motion with force plate data that you may find interesting. If you look carefully at the graph under the video of the player, you'll notice a gradual increase and spike of green for the force on the right foot as the player PUSHES off of it and gets his weight to the front foot.

For this particular golfer the pressure and the dropping of the arms seem to be nearly simultaneous... not to be missed though is that there IS a PUSH off of the right foot. Even for this amateur swing.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

You are seeing the result correctly, as most everyone does, but not the cause, IMO. You make that move by contracting the muscles of the trail side and the trail back. This is what Rory is doing. Then the pushing, after the drop, not causing the drop.

I don't know how you're getting your sequence as being a drop first based on that picture. Clearly his hips are shifting forward. His hands and arms stay in nearly the same place while his lower body and torso start to unwind. How could you possibly support a "arms drop first" when his arms aren't going anywhere in this picture.

More clearly shown in this animation of Anthony Kim. He is pulling his right shoulder and back rib cage down to his right hip/butt with his side and lower back muscles. A push will not put those wrinkles in his shirt.

They will if you are pushing the body forward with the right side muscles. That's what the force plate data tells us is going on.

You can see and feel all of this by balancing with all your weight on your back leg and doing the bump, drop and turn. The action, the cause of the movement, the drivers, are the back and side.

Right, the back swing is pushing the body forward.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

That was a very thoughtful and brave post.

You did post some interesting and thought provoking information, the site can be enriched by both of your views as long as they are civil.

I am a man of my word, though I did say if he returns and sadly enough I don't see him, I should have added "and asks me to leave" as he might not want me to.

The problem is, the data supports what I'm saying. They study this stuff a lot.

You can see the amateur keeps their weight "centered" the most and hits it the shortest. The Touring professional has a near straight back to the arch of the right foot and then a straight to the arch of the front foot on the forward swing.

So clearly the better players do get their weight onto their right foot in the backswing. But more to our discussion, what takes the weight and makes it move forward?

Here is a golf swing motion with force plate data that you may find interesting. If you look carefully at the graph under the video of the player, you'll notice a gradual increase and spike of green for the force on the right foot as the player PUSHES off of it and gets his weight to the front foot.

YouTube - Force Plate Graph of swing

For this particular golfer the pressure and the dropping of the arms seem to be nearly simultaneous... not to be missed though is that there IS a PUSH off of the right foot. Even for this amateur swing.

This is a true statment and is backed up by a man who had a masters in kenesiology and a doctorate and a BS in physics. Whether or not you (you in general) believe had had the most efficient golf swing ever nor the record longest drive (515yds) on the course or a swing speed clocked at 160+ is moot. No one argues the mans credentials.


I heard Mike Austin say that Paul Harney (5'11" 160lbs) and himself had the weight shift measured and it was the same and they were pound for pound some of the longest hitters on the tour. http://www.pgatour.com/players/00/50/14/ Mike's driving Avg. 294.3 yds (with a balatta ball and old cluubs mind you) with 82.1% accuracy (better than the #1 ranking accuracy of today at 80.7%). As well as Jerry Barber's with no weight shift (50%/50% throught the swing) weight on feet http://www.pgatour.com/players/00/10/55/with 219 yds avg and 82.1% granted, Barber was only 5'5 137lbs


The study was done by Mike and the UCLA sports department and the Howell Weight Scales Company?(best from what I could hear from the bad audio) and somehow was leaked by Betty Hicks to the press, but she released it wrong and missed the whole point the study was trying to prove. It was supposed to be in regards to degree of the amount of weight shift. Mike and Paul had of hip shift from a 55% 45% (back/front foot)at adress, to a 80% on the back foot and 20% on the front, and at the top of BS and they had 90% on front foot and 10% on the back foot through impact.

If you watch Domenic Mazza http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/video?id=7...dicate%C2%A7io This is a skinny little guy that understands this philosophy/technique. Well, he might not understand it or have a clue what he is doing (other than what is natural to him), but he is doing it right.

[keiko]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

You will notice weight re-distribution but not beyond the right instep then a move to the left before he drops into the slot.
Interesting also is ball placement is further back than one would advise but it is necessary due to great amount of lag.
If the ball were further forward, that amount of lag would have him hitting it extremely late which would cause high fades and a tendency to flip.

I am a man of my word, though I did say if he returns and sadly enough I don't see him, I should have added "and asks me to leave" as he might not want me to.



This is a true statment and is backed up by a man who had a masters in kenesiology and a doctorate and a BS in physics. Whether or not you (you in general) believe had had the most efficient golf swing ever nor the record longest drive (515yds) on the course or a swing speed clocked at 160+ is moot. No one argues the mans credentials.


I heard Mike Austin say that Paul Harney (5'11" 160lbs) and himself had the weight shift measured and it was the same and they were pound for pound some of the longest hitters on the tour. http://www.pgatour.com/players/00/50/14/ Mike's driving Avg. 294.3 yds (with a balatta ball and old cluubs mind you) with 82.1% accuracy (better than the #1 ranking accuracy of today at 80.7%). As well as Jerry Barber's with no weight shift (50%/50% throught the swing) weight on feet http://www.pgatour.com/players/00/10/55/with 219 yds avg and 82.1% granted, Barber was only 5'5 137lbs


The study was done by Mike and the UCLA sports department and the Howell Weight Scales Company?(best from what I could hear from the bad audio) and somehow was leaked by Betty Hicks to the press, but she released it wrong and missed the whole point the study was trying to prove. It was supposed to be in regards to degree of the amount of weight shift. Mike and Paul had of hip shift from a 55% 45% (back/front foot)at adress, to a 80% on the back foot and 20% on the front, and at the top of BS and they had 90% on front foot and 10% on the back foot through impact.

If you watch Domenic Mazza http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/video?id=7...dicate%C2%A7io This is a skinny little guy that understands this philosophy/technique. Well, he might not understand it or have a clue what he is doing (other than what is natural to him), but he is doing it right.

[kbp]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Ringers video actually supports my theory. Frame by frame, it looks to me like the abrupt change in force occurs just before movement is visible from the front side. Further, the weight is actually back to center before his back ankle or knee has moved one iota toward the target. If you had video from the back side you would likely see the back contractions preceding the force change. You will also notice his upper body has moved before his back knee or ankle. The chain of movement is not from the ground up. It is from the middle out.

Nobody has ever said there isn’t a weight shift. There absolutely is. The question is and has always been about the cause, the start, the drop, the sequence. If you look at Sandlowski’s footwork, you will see he heavily loads the back foot and then his first move down is to quickly unload it, just like your force plate study. However, it is clear he is not "pushing" first, he is lifting by pulling his shoulder down and his hip and leg up. Contractions in the back.

I gave a demonstration using a fully loaded back leg. Stand on your right leg only and try to push off. You can’t do much of anything. Let yourself "drop" a little at the knee and see the movement. Or try arching your lower back while bending to the side. Further, after you’ve started your weight moving, let it continue to fall to the left onto your left foot. Notice that after the right foot has started to unload THEN you can push very easily and powerfully.

The comments about the lack of weight shift in amateurs is apropos. When they fully load up, they can’t ‘push-off" as they’ve been told they must. So they stay more centered and they can "push-off". What they need to learn is to load up, then start the weight back with the midsection muscles, like in the right leg exercise above, and then push. Drop then push, not push then drop.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

Ringers video actually supports my theory. Frame by frame, it looks to me like the abrupt change in force occurs just before movement is visible from the front side. Further, the weight is actually back to center before his back ankle or knee has moved one iota toward the target. If you had video from the back side you would likely see the back contractions preceding the force change. You will also notice his upper body has moved before his back knee or ankle. The chain of movement is not from the ground up. It is from the middle out.

Nobody has ever said there isn’t a weight shift. There absolutely is. The question is and has always been about the cause, the start, the drop, the sequence. If you look at Sandlowski’s footwork, you will see he heavily loads the back foot and then his first move down is to quickly unload it, just like your force plate study. However, it is clear he is not "pushing" first, he is lifting by pulling his shoulder down and his hip and leg up. Contractions in the back.

I gave a demonstration using a fully loaded back leg. Stand on your right leg only and try to push off. You can’t do much of anything. Let yourself "drop" a little at the knee and see the movement. Or try arching your lower back while bending to the side. Further, after you’ve started your weight moving, let it continue to fall to the left onto your left foot. Notice that after the right foot has started to unload THEN you can push very easily and powerfully.

The comments about the lack of weight shift in amateurs is apropos. When they fully load up, they can’t ‘push-off" as they’ve been told they must. So they stay more centered and they can "push-off". What they need to learn is to load up, then start the weight back with the midsection muscles, like in the right leg exercise above, and then push. Drop then push, not push then drop.

How long did Roger Clements foot stay where it was on the bag? Yet he was considered one of the hardest "push off" guys.

You don't have to MOVE a foot to be pushing from it. In fact you don't want it moving at all until all the force you can muster is gone. Using shear force to your advantage requires it.

[kbp]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

The pitcher is an even better example. Pitcher guarding the runner at first. He takes his stretch and sets. He is sideways, equally balanced on both feet. He lifts the front leg. Now he is doing my one-legged exercise. If he is balanced on one leg, can he push first? Try it. No. He lets his weight start to fall toward the plate. Then he pushes long and hard toward the plate.

Standing on the ground at the top of the backswing, we are "pushing" on the ground. No kidding? Gravity. No motion though. Now we want to move. What body part will we move first? What muscle will we contract first? Your answer, please.

[keiko]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

PotATEo-PotATo, TomATEo-TomATo, same thing just semantics.
Makes no difference to anyone-especially here.

How long did Roger Clements foot stay where it was on the bag? Yet he was considered one of the hardest "push off" guys.

You don't have to MOVE a foot to be pushing from it. In fact you don't want it moving at all until all the force you can muster is gone. Using shear force to your advantage requires it.

[kbp]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

I agree, you good players know how to do it. Unfortunately, those still on the journey may need a different perspective.

Everyone does not "feel" things the same. If a guy’s knocking the ball 300 and it "feels" like a push first, that’s great. Don’t’ f*** with it. If you're knocking it 220 and want to get to 250, and "pushing off" first isn’t working, consider trying to focus more on what is really happening first.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

For this particular golfer the pressure and the dropping of the arms seem to be nearly simultaneous... not to be missed though is that there IS a PUSH off of the right foot. Even for this amateur swing.

The weight/pressure increase is something that occurs, but that doesn't mean it is something you try to do. Pushing causes tension, and tension causing slow movement. When you jump, do you push as hard as you can against the ground? That is what you are doing, your pressure on the ground is increasing to obey equal and opposite reaction. But is your brain telling you to push down? Those that "push" off of the pitchers mound, they also know physics and would say that in order to move off the mound faster, one must exert more force in the opposite direction, and because they know this fact, they think they are pushing... or they actually are pushing and not getting optimal force. But just because a force into the ground increases, doens't mean you are consiously pushing. But in terms of physics, yes, you are absoultely pushing into the ground. Though the golf swing isn't done on paper, so telling someone to push (though that is what they are doing) IMO doens't help anyone, and confuses them as it can lead to them actual consiously pushing against the ground.

When you walk, do you ever push off the ground conciously? What your brain does is when it actually lifts the foot off the ground. And that is what golfers and pitches alike are doing (if they are doing it in the most efficient manner).

When you punch something, do you tell yourself to flex your tricep as strong as you can or felx your pecs, effectivley pushing your hand toward your oponent? Or do you just tell your brain where you want your hand to go, and to move fast, and it does this. Once a muscles is consiously flexed, it doens't want to move, the muscle is tensed, that is where tension comes from. You are now using muscle to overcome this tension so 60% of your muscle is being used to flex, and 40% to overcome this tension you create. But if you let your brain do it, you can use 100% of the muscle to complete the task.

Hook up a EMG to the muscles and see which one works harder and when the hand moves faster. Or the same thing with the feet. Any time you consiously use a muscle, you are adding tension and slowing it down. Instead you should be moving the body part with your brain, and the muscle will do it's job faster and stronger than you will if you focus on teh muscle.

Get into your golf stance, get to the top of your BS with 80% of your weight on your back foot. Then keeping your head still, try to left your back foot. Your brain will tranfer your weight to the front foot harder and faster than you can pushing. If you want to transfer your weight faster, try to pick up your right foot harder/faster. And when I say keep your head still, I don't mean like Nicklaus with his instructor holding his hair, I just mean don't let it move in the direction your weight is shifting or you negate the force.

Pretent there is a midget in front of your front foot and try to knee this guy as hard as you can with your back foot. You will find your back muscles, your side muscles, everything down to your feet is relaxed, your whole righ side drops and all of your weight transfers to your left side as your right knee comes up to knee this guy. Hook yourself up to an EMG or get a pressure plate and test this. See if your weight isn't transfered MUCH faster and more force isn't applied down than had you attempted to push down.

Like when walking, you don't push down to propel your back foot forward, you just attempt to pick up your back foot, and it won't come off the ground untill your weight is transferred to the front foot at which point it will come up.

Though saying pulling can even add some tension, that is why Mike didnt' say push or pull, he just said transfer your weight. The harder you want to hit, transfer your weight faster. Your brain can do this very easily as it is so used to diong this with walkiing. Having the weight on one foot, and moving it to the other. When you speed walk or walk faster, do you pull any harder or push any harder consiously? You just do it faster, the brain is really too complicated to explain how it does what it does.

This is not only stronger and faster, but it takes all of the thinking and timing our of it since you have been walking for years, it is second nature. Like Mezza, he just picked up a club and started crushing the ball, because he knows how to walk. Or like gregjwillis's walking drill.

Just transfer your weight to the back foot in the BS and back to the front in the FS. You want to hit further, transfer your weight faster.


Yu put your feet too close together (ie touching) and you can' transfer much weight any distance, no matter how fast you do it. The further your feet are apart, the more weight is transfered further. Though it you move your feet too far apart (much past shoulder width) your hips can't work properly and your head wil move.

[Ringer]

Re: Great Tips I Highly Recommend!

So much anecdotal stuff going on in these posts guys. I actually produced some real data. There's WAY more out there but most of it is tied up in company drawers for their internal use.

The fact is, in some of the numbers I've seen, the golfer is pushing off of the ground about 175% of their actual body weight. PUSH. It happens whether you want to admit it or not. Not everyone needs to try and push either, for them it's automatic response. But IT HAPPENS whether you like it or not.

For some who get too far back over their right foot, they may have to tilt a hair forward to get their mass a little more forward before they push, but thats for people who produce an inefficient backswing and get too far back.