anyone up for a discussion?

[forelife]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

My head position tilts to the right with my longer clubs because my right leg is ready to absorb the torque of my backswing and my downswing starts when my eyes have zeroed in on the golfball, Although I look at the ball throughout the take away, something happens when I complete my backswing and the ball looks crystal clear. This doesn't happen all the time but when it does the shot is PERFECT

[forelife]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

It does move a little bit forward, but it moves alot more down. And even before impact it moves alot back.

Actually it only looks like his head moves back but it's his left shoulder moving away from his chin that makes his head look like it's moved back, his head is steady while he releases all his power forward and onto the back of the nike one ball

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Actually it only looks like his head moves back but it's his left shoulder moving away from his chin that makes his head look like it's moved back, his head is steady while he releases all his power forward and onto the back of the nike one ball

put lines up on the screen and you will see that it does move back as 2k3 said, yes his shoulder does move away but his head also tilts back to the right
in order here are his head movments
on backswig it goes half a head back whilel rotating to his right
just before the top it goes down and left at the same time and continues this
before impact it starts tilting back to the right and pulling away from where it was initially at address, after that it is pulled to the finish

[forelife]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

put lines up on the screen and you will see that it does move back as 2k3 said, yes his shoulder does move away but his head also tilts back to the right
in order here are his head movments
on backswig it goes half a head back whilel rotating to his right
just before the top it goes down and left at the same time and continues this
before impact it starts tilting back to the right and pulling away from where it was initially at address, after that it is pulled to the finish

Hmmm...i don't see TW's head tilting back, his head is merely turning and looking down the target line, for the head to tilt back before impact is a swing flaw

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

in the golf swing we only have one swing center and it is a very small area.
let me see if I can paint a picture for you.
if I gave you a ruler and have it standing straight up and down, then I put a hole in it artthe nine inch mark. now put the ruler on a nail at the nine inch mark if the bottom of the ruler goes forward, the top of the ruler goes back. The ruler is our spine and in the down swing the more the hips go forward the more the head goes back. so after the intial shift where the whole body goes forward the bottom of the spine goes more forward so at some point the top of the spine goes back and this is not a swing flaw.

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

in conclusion the head must be able to shift off the ball on the back swing because IT WILL shift forward on the downswing. The shift forward is a good thing, but it is viewed as a bad thing by those who DONT move the head back on the back swing. in reading on here I know GONAVY has an understanding of this, and I imagine Greg and others do as well.

I agree with you on ther head moving in the BS but not the head moving first on the DS. I think thats a feel you are having when actually you are doing something else. The lower body should always be the first thing to move on the DS even if we feel it isnt

My BS feels like a small lateral move with the head and shoulders and then a turn around my core (in my case thats my sternum). Ive given up worrying about knee flex and not moving the hips because I now believe (for me at least) that its bunk and doesnt allow for a free turn/pivot back. Youre core must shift a little and then turn. Your core is the centre of your body from your belt buckle to your sternum. This must shift and turn and get behind the ball. When this happens your head has to go along for the ride. Staring at the ball doesnt make this easy. Staring at a point behind the ball does as it frees up the head to move back a little

My intial shift sets my triangle well in front of my body so my clubhead is outside my hands. If I then turn my core my arms go up on plane and my hands feel in front of me. For someone with a centered turn this would feel like a big shift but your chest will be over your instep and your nose over that right foot. My whole upper body is now well behind the ball and I can come down and through with speed

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

pnearm, this is not a feel, it is an observation when I watch tape and pictures of great players, Hogan does this, Tiger does this. out of curiosity have you put up lines on Tigers head shot? do that and then let me know if it is "feel" or it is what is happening. I dont try to move the head but the head must move for the weight to shift. the head movement is all subconscious

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Shootin. Am I right in thinking youve gone from a very centered turn with little lateral movement of the upper body (and therefore the head) to one in which you now have more of a lateral shift with your turn to get you into that Y position Mclean illustrates?

If so then IMHO this is a more powerful position and a better pivot. Im sure in Tigers book he actually said he actively tries to move his head back a little and this is something he's been working on with Haney

However its an effect not a cause. The cause is the slight lateral shift as the left shoulder turns behind the ball

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Shootin. Am I right in thinking youve gone from a very centered turn with little lateral movement of the upper body (and therefore the head) to one in which you now have more of a lateral shift with your turn to get you into that Y position Mclean illustrates?

If so then IMHO this is a more powerful position and a better pivot. Im sure in Tigers book he actually said he actively tries to move his head back a little and this is something he's been working on with Haney

However its an effect not a cause. The cause is the slight lateral shift as the left shoulder turns behind the ball

yes you are right and this is something most of the greatest ball strikers of all time have done. I have a Hogan DVD and his is VERY pronounced as well. in the last post I made I said, "I dont try to move the head but the head must move for the weight to shift. the head movement is all subconscious" All I am trying to do is get behind the ball on the back swing. Head movement is a by product of that. Most all of your power players have this shift.

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

yes you are right and this is something most of the greatest ball strikers of all time have done. I have a Hogan DVD and his is VERY pronounced as well. in the last post I made I said, "I dont try to move the head but the head must move for the weight to shift. the head movement is all subconscious" All I am trying to do is get behind the ball on the back swing. Head movement is a by product of that. Most all of your power players have this shift.

Ive been setting up for quite a while now with my head behind the ball (almost tilted), a wide stance, and looking at a point behind the ball. This gives me a nice axis tilt and I feel I am behind the ball before I even start back. This way I need a fraction less shift off the ball because I struggle with turning the shift into a slide and having the weight on the outside of my right foot.

I have found though there are things which affect me getting this nice wide position at the top. One is early rotation of the left forearm. If i get inside/deep from this forearm rotation I find my hands pull my upper body back towards the target some (a mini reverse pivot) which lifts me up oput of my posture. Keys for me right now are getting the core to get the triangle steeper going up (up the wall) and keeping my hands in front of my core as it turns. Feels like an outside takeaway.. almost Furyk-esque!

Im working hard on not rotating my left forearm early. Only turning the core. This gives me great width at the top (hands far from head), stops me over-rotating and 'lifting up' as my arms got too deep and allows me to shallow the club in the transition and naturally rotate that left forearm on the way down. I think the role of the left forearm in the pivot i(and its dangers) arent well explained anywhere (including BMANs perfect pivot article)

Such a simple thing but its taken me ages to figure it out

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

I have had many of the same issues that you describe in your last post. For ME I dont like setting up with a lot of axis tilt because then if I shift back in the back swing I will get outside of my rear foot too easy. look at the set up of hogan, tiger, els, garcia all whom are very well known for a great swing. their heads are about an inch or two behind center at address. By having the head close to center at address my first move back can be a shift to my right side and for me this takes care of the left forearm rotation problem which I used to have issues with. In the week that I have understood this my whole golf swing has changed. the last three days I have hit great shots with a trajectory that cuts right through the wind and distance is easy. NEVER before had I flighted the ball so well, the trajectory is the kind that I have been seeking for years. I still have a lot of work to do but understanding this stuff and incorperating it has shown great results and enabled me to do things with the golf ball that I had never done before.. If I knew how to download to a computer I would put a before and after, the difference is unreal and I can hardly believe it myself. I also believe once I get it down it will take very little maintance because it feels very natural. on the wide stance thing, if you get it too wide you will introduce a sway and not enough rotation. Just my thoughts and thanks for discussing

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Neil.. what are the key changes you have made? Can you summarise them in bullet points? Im interested

I setup with some tilt so I dont have to shift back quite so far as I used to. Ive experimented with both the centered setup and the shift (which I think is easier to learn hence the recommendation in the other thread) and found I can just turn my arms up the wall whilst getting my right hip behind me and keep my left forearm inactive until its at least chest high when it will rotate a quarter turn as my elbow/wrists fold and hinge. I found I wasnt getting my right hip behind me as early as I wanted to which is a key for me too

I feel as if the shift takes the club straight back along the ground from the ball (or even a little outside) for the first 12 inches (used to be about 18 before I added the tilt) then I turn that right hip right around and keep the arms going up the wall as my core turns. This gets my left shoulder right across (width), clears my right hip (turn not sway) and gives myself the 'lane' to drive the hands and arms a long way down to the ball

As I said be interested to hear your recent changes to see if these concepts match up. Always something to learn and improve

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

1. focus on set up EVERY TIME and make sure I bend from the waste, lower back straight my nose does not point at the ball but my head is pre turned to the right to allow my shoulder a freer path in the back swing. I imagine that I can put a cup on my neck because it is level (learned that from bman as well)

2. mid body hands and very little axis tilt, the hands forward address I used to do opened my shoulders

left thumb straight down the shaft which set up for what I do in 5

4. Shift off the ball and get behind it at the top

5. Cupped left wrist at the top of the back swing with my left thumb directly under the shaft, which allows less tension for me, and allows the hands to fall off in the transition, the transition then flattens out the wrist and I can fire as hard as I want

if I do 1-4 but dont do 5 then none of it matters. I argued with greg on this site about the left wrist and turns out he was right, my apologies.

I am focusing on all this at once and for me it is not that much to think of, just basically all pre shot and two key swing thoughts.

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

So without opening a huge can of worms are you now delibertaly cupping at the top or simply not flattening on the way back? I *think* this may be analagous to what I am trying to do in not allowing left forearm rotation which was what caused my left plam to face down at the top of the swing...thus flat left wrist

By not rotating the left forearm at all in the BS (or at least feeling like im not) I can then rotate it hard on the way down as a natural result of the turn through. Thus the 'door' still opens/closes but not nearly as much. More upright swing, less left forearm rotation. At least thats what I think is happening. I wonder if you think your changes are similar?

Interestingly my left thumb is straight down the shaft too and I use it as a 'feel' point (along with my right forefinger)

[shootin4par]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

I am not trying to cup, but the heel pad of the left hand pushes the club to the top and that causes the left wrist cock. Now that I understand a little more for me it is much more natural to push with the heel pad in a slightly cupped position. Again, not trying to cup it, just maintaining address angles