anyone up for a discussion?

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

I am wondering a few things. I think we may have stumbled on the same conclusions independently

1. With a centered turn and exaggerated left forearm rotation the hands get deeper in the BS. . From the top you rely on shoulder and forearm rotation for speed and squaring the clubface. Hogan I guess had this type of swing and this is what Hardy and Quinton etc preach in the 1PS

2. With a weight shift and more upright swing the hands gets high at the top with minimal forearm rotation. This is more of a leverage swing where speed comes from a wide arc (club has further to travel) and a more aggressive weight shift left. The club still rotates on the way down but far less than in no 1. I guess Ernie and DL3 are this type of swinger

Without getting right into it (because honestly i dont care!) you could probably disect this with a world of mumbo jumbo about plane shifts, turned shoulder planes, elbow planes etc etc yada yada yada

But I wonder whether you (like me to an extent) make an aggressive weight shift from the top naturally. In a centered swing this would probably look like a lunge/heave forward but when you get the weight back and high hands this move is actually very powerful and allows for really good compression and greater swing speed. One thing I do notice is at impact in the first type you have the bent right arm but in no 2 the right arm straightens right at impact rather than beyond. You can really see this in Michelle Wie's and Ernies swing http://content-golf.live.advance.net...uencepanel.jpg (and look at the behind the ball position Michelle gets at the top)

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi pnearn
like the pics you posted of ernie and michelle. in both sets see how much there hips turn at impact, both have more turn in there hips than in there shoulders at impact, both keep they triangle upto and through impact. and none of them seem to use aj bonners home run magic move as there wrists dont turn till the balls well gone. also the angle of there shoulders the frame before impact, both are tilted back as there were at setup.
think both of them swing so good and i see michelle swing is a lot flatter now.
bill

[BrianW]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi pnearn
like the pics you posted of ernie and michelle. in both sets see how much there hips turn at impact, both have more turn in there hips than in there shoulders at impact, both keep they triangle upto and through impact. and none of them seem to use aj bonners home run magic move as there wrists dont turn till the balls well gone. also the angle of there shoulders the frame before impact, both are tilted back as there were at setup.
think both of them swing so good and i see michelle swing is a lot flatter now.
bill

Hi Bill,

I think their wrists are turning through impact, they start to turn at the release position and are fully turned at the follow through, the stills don't show it well.

I agree they don't use this home run idea (who does?) they just rotate their forearms.

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi brian
yes you do see that the club comes in about 18 inches away open and is closed about 18 inches past so yes there wrists turn but i ment as in aj bonners (home run) flick of the wrists to add power. i have hid dvd and there is some good info in there but i dont think that is one of them. one other thing that dalton mccraley says in his strait shooting, is the right elbow in to the side and the hands near the right pocket at impact. all good playes seem to lead with the hips so the belt buckle it more towards target than the buttons of the shirt at impact. even on a chip they open there stance so if there is little hip movement the hips are still out the way.
one last thing do you think the distance from there hands to there hips seem to be the same at address and at impact even though there hips have turned and look closer to the ball at impact.

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi brian
yes you do see that the club comes in about 18 inches away open and is closed about 18 inches past so yes there wrists turn but i ment as in aj bonners (home run) flick of the wrists to add power. i have hid dvd and there is some good info in there but i dont think that is one of them. one other thing that dalton mccraley says in his strait shooting, is the right elbow in to the side and the hands near the right pocket at impact. all good playes seem to lead with the hips so the belt buckle it more towards target than the buttons of the shirt at impact. even on a chip they open there stance so if there is little hip movement the hips are still out the way.
one last thing do you think the distance from there hands to there hips seem to be the same at address and at impact even though there hips have turned and look closer to the ball at impact.

Bill/Brian, tks for the input.

I think the key thing I am finding is all about forearm rotation. If you look at the flatter swings (i.e. Hogan) there is a lot of forearm rotation early and less of a weight shift forward and back. This is reliant more on shoulder and forearm turn for power and less on the hips (even though Hogan said he thought his power came from his hips I personally now doubt that to be true, he just got them out the way and then rotated his forearms)

The Wie/Els swing has a lot less forearm rotation in it. Its much more upright and relies more on a wider arc and a bigger pivot/weight shift going back and going forward. No home run there. This gives speed through leverage and height. Indeed if (like I have been finding) you add too much forearm rotation into this type of swing you will get way too deep at the top and have to come OTT or manage to flatten in transition and then hook it off the planet. Furyk/Couples are the extreme exponents of this method. Steep high swing, minimal forearm rotation, cupped left wrist at the top then flatten and shallow on the way down with little rotation needed to square the club

My challenge right now is working on minimising that left forearm rotation until later in the BS. I know ive done too much too early when I get across the line at the top

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi pnearn
i think you make a great point about the two types of swing, the flat plane with no or little rotation on the wrists and the higher swing with more wrist movement,
i do think hogan did make a point to shift his hips towards target as he turned them think lots of flat plane swingers did. trevino did it most i think.
if you look back at tall player of just 10/15 years ago they all swung there arms high and came in steep to the ball but now most tall player now seem to swing lot flatter and sweep into the ball a lot more with there woods and long irons, with short irons there so tall its like they pick them up high and swing steep back into ball.
its like that have two swings on for that long irons and woods and one for the short irons and wedges.
i think most high handicap player get mixed up and have a flat swing with lots of wrist movment, a bit like you said earler. the flat swing with firm wrist does work but you can lose distance but gain in hitting it strait, with the wirsts working you do hit longer but its harder to square the clubface.

i got clubs from a friend few months ago but they were 2% flatter than my old ones, i was just going to have them ajusted but found i hit better with the flatter lie and my swing looks so much better now too. so the lie on the clubs do make a diffrence too, i did a ping lie check and i should be black lie but am using orange and i feel im player lot better and hitting the ball well too.
bill

[BrianW]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi brian
yes you do see that the club comes in about 18 inches away open and is closed about 18 inches past so yes there wrists turn but i ment as in aj bonners (home run) flick of the wrists to add power. i have hid dvd and there is some good info in there but i dont think that is one of them. one other thing that dalton mccraley says in his strait shooting, is the right elbow in to the side and the hands near the right pocket at impact. all good playes seem to lead with the hips so the belt buckle it more towards target than the buttons of the shirt at impact. even on a chip they open there stance so if there is little hip movement the hips are still out the way.
one last thing do you think the distance from there hands to there hips seem to be the same at address and at impact even though there hips have turned and look closer to the ball at impact.

I think the distance from their hands to the ball are the same at impact as address, the distance from hands to hip is less due to the way the hips have cleared bringing the right side nearer to the ball (and hands).

[BrianW]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Bill/Brian, tks for the input.

I think the key thing I am finding is all about forearm rotation. If you look at the flatter swings (i.e. Hogan) there is a lot of forearm rotation early and less of a weight shift forward and back. This is reliant more on shoulder and forearm turn for power and less on the hips (even though Hogan said he thought his power came from his hips I personally now doubt that to be true, he just got them out the way and then rotated his forearms)

The Wie/Els swing has a lot less forearm rotation in it. Its much more upright and relies more on a wider arc and a bigger pivot/weight shift going back and going forward. No home run there. This gives speed through leverage and height. Indeed if (like I have been finding) you add too much forearm rotation into this type of swing you will get way too deep at the top and have to come OTT or manage to flatten in transition and then hook it off the planet. Furyk/Couples are the extreme exponents of this method. Steep high swing, minimal forearm rotation, cupped left wrist at the top then flatten and shallow on the way down with little rotation needed to square the club

My challenge right now is working on minimising that left forearm rotation until later in the BS. I know ive done too much too early when I get across the line at the top

Hi Paul.

I know we have moved away from the original point of moving the head but I would like to comment on the release and forearm rotation. I think it's probably best that I open a new thread in Discussions so as not to confuse Shootins discussion..

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi pnearn

if you look back at tall player of just 10/15 years ago they all swung there arms high and came in steep to the ball but now most tall player now seem to swing lot flatter and sweep into the ball a lot more with there woods and long irons, with short irons there so tall its like they pick them up high and swing steep back into ball.

Im not sure I totally agree with that Bill. I think tall guys like Furyk, Couples, Ernie, DLIII etc all have upright swings, high hands and little forearm rotation but managed to flatten considerably in the transition, come in shallow and have that little bit of forearm rotation through impact. Less rotation=less timing but they have to get the weight shift right. Tell tale sign on the way up is hands outside the clubhead and club covering the right forearm on the way down

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi brian
if you go up on your right toe as you come into impact your hip must be closer to the ball so you need to sway and turn you hips to give hands room as they swing down the last 2 feet to the ball.
is the hip movement the result of the arms swinging down on plane or are the arms swinging in plane due to the hip movement, seem to be two camps on which it is. i think it the hips that lead and hands follow, i also think the hips start the downswing, think thats why the head moves back and forward, as the hips turn round the spine as hips slid a little the plane of the spine changes and moves forward too. if you look at all pros at inpact with a driver there shoulders are not level but tilted, and left arm seems to streach fully and right arm is still flexed till past impact, both arms are not fully streached till the hands are past the left foot.
bill

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Hi Paul.

I know we have moved away from the original point of moving the head but I would like to comment on the release and forearm rotation. I think it's probably best that I open a new thread in Discussions so as not to confuse Shootins discussion..

Sounds good Brian! I guess we have gone a little off topic but I think its a real interesting debate and it certainly seems to be something that has helped me enormously just lately (and S4p too by the looks of things)

[BrianW]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi brian
if you go up on your right toe as you come into impact your hip must be closer to the ball so you need to sway and turn you hips to give hands room as they swing down the last 2 feet to the ball.
is the hip movement the result of the arms swinging down on plane or are the arms swinging in plane due to the hip movement, seem to be two camps on which it is. i think it the hips that lead and hands follow, i also think the hips start the downswing, think thats why the head moves back and forward, as the hips turn round the spine as hips slid a little the plane of the spine changes and moves forward too. if you look at all pros at inpact with a driver there shoulders are not level but tilted, and left arm seems to streach fully and right arm is still flexed till past impact, both arms are not fully streached till the hands are past the left foot.
bill

Bill,

Regarding the hips, arms and shoulders, This is the way I do it;

There are two separations between the hips and upper body in the swing one on the back and one on the down:

During the takeaway the arms and hands move away with the hips and shoulders fixed, then the arms have to slow so the shoulders and hips can catch up. On the way back the legs and hips have to start then slow for the arms and shoulders to catch up. Everything you put into the backswing you must take back in the downswing plus a little bit more at impact with the hips right leg and shoulders.

[bill reed]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

hi brian
think you put that very nicely and is easy to understand too.
bill

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

Bill,

Regarding the hips, arms and shoulders, This is the way I do it;

There are two separations between the hips and upper body in the swing one on the back and one on the down:

During the takeaway the arms and hands move away with the hips and shoulders fixed, then the arms have to slow so the shoulders and hips can catch up. On the way back the legs and hips have to start then slow for the arms and shoulders to catch up. Everything you put into the backswing you must take back in the downswing plus a little bit more at impact with the hips right leg and shoulders.

Interesting how people feel and do things differently. On my backswing I move the whole upper body unit away together (hands, arms and shoulders) driven by the core such that the hands and arms move last. I also get my right hip out of the way quickly, turning it behind me to make sure it turns and doesnt slide as my core turns the arm/chest unit (triangle) up the wall and I get right behind the ball. All this time the left arm stays connectred to the chest. In this way I feel as if my upper and lower bodies seperate very early in the backswing

This gives me the room to drive my hands down on an inside "lane" where my right hip would have been if I hadnt have turned it out the way. I see a lot of people at my range sliding their right hips and then having no room to bring the club down because it is in the way. They then have to come OTT to square the face. Same reason why we stand open on small pitches and chips.. we preset the hips out the way of the lane our arms need to take

all good stuff this

[pnearn]

Re: anyone up for a discussion?

To illustrate this look at this setup position of Brady Riggs (taken from the Impractis site)



And look at the top of swing



See how the right hip has actually come away from the line as he has turned it, and how his left shoulder and head have come backwards. Lower body has turned, upper body has shifted right and turned. That plus the forearm rotations are the absolute keys for me. If I get them right I pound the ball and when im off I can usually trace it back to one of those two things

Because the right hip is out the way he can drop his arms down inside , into that
"lane" and the clubface will have a free run at the ball and square up. If the hip was over that line then the arms have to go around it and they wont have the time and space to square, the clubface will be open and you would block. So what people do is bring the club OTT to get it in front of those hips. It took me a long time to figure this out for myself but it feels like your arms are going away from you and your hips behind you. NOT both in the same direction (which is why I now personally think trying so hard to keep the hips still ruined my game for a long time)