myths in golf

[BrianW]

Re: myths in golf

I did say that the golf swing is not a circular motion, did you read my post on the make up of the swingpath through ellipses? did I say the swingpath was a circle or did I say it was an arc, the two are different. What's this about stopping for a second, who said that? The only way for the face to stay square is if it has stopped its rotation or never rotate at all, and the only way to swing on a line to the target is if the swing is straight up and down, completely verticle with no inclined plane. it cannot be compared directly to a weight on a string and does not continually go on an arc, that is a myth. the clubhead may, through manipulation, go straight on the takeaway but once the club is dropping into the slot it will become a weight on a string after well after impact it will react diffrently as well on the folllow through because of the shaft stiffness, but from the slot untilll above hip high, in a swing it is weight on a string. Now hitting is another matter

I also explained that what is important to someone learning or sometimes , fixing a swing is the concept of keeping the clubface on target through impact,here your wording has changed from your original post of "only correct way" it is amazing how the brain can control and manipulate these things at great speed, actually the speed of the arms and hands is much less than the clubface and that is where the control is made. Pretty basic knowledge, kind of like the further away from the hub you get the faster the object is traveling. and since the arms and hands are the last things in control of the club I would expect them to be the controling factors I think you must agree that I am not the only person with this swing thought, swing THOUGHT is a long was away from your ORIGINAL POST of only correct way. just read my example quotations. OK, maybe you disagree and I fully respect that you have a different opinion, that's fine. What I and others speak of is getting the right feel during the swing and that cannot be expressed as physics or breaking down the concept into small detail.

you also said in a previous post "It is quite possible to come to the ball on an inside arc, straighten out the path through impact for a short time then return to an arc" You said in this post "I also explained that what is important to someone learning or sometimes fixing a swing is the concept of keeping the clubface on target through impact" and in your intial correct post is was "Only one way" So is it only one way, quite possible, or important to learning sometimes. Your first post was an ABSOULUTE, your ABSOLUTE was wrong and a myth. you dont want to see it and you want to add more words to make your first post, which was a wrong myth, valid


you also said I gave my opinion on what I believe to be the best way to hit a golf ball." when you say things like only one way, which you did in your ORIGINAL post, it does not sound like opinions to me. You are getting off of your original post and trying to win a debate away from your original words rather then sticking to your guns on your ORIGINAL post and my original response.

PS. Out of all the people here who do you think has looked at the golfswing with an open mind from the most different angles, and tried to learn each of those methods/angles and kept an open mind. You may see that person as a now it all but I can assure you that he knows more about the swing then most of us combined. might be a little wordy and hard to understand at times but then again explaining on a computer is hard. My point is if if that person disagrees or agrees with something I would take note and if I did not believe him I would make it a point to find out what he is talking about. In life just cause people are older does not make them more knowledgeable but a seeker of truth, about whatever, will find things most people will not and to find the truth you must have an open mind to when you may be wrong. If I was told my statement was wrong by Cmays, I would have took notice and did some research.

Here you go again, semantics. I commented on his remark regarding people on this site getting off their lazy butts. I have never rubbished his thinking. Get it right mate.

[shootin4par]

Re: myths in golf

Here you go again, semantics. I commented on his remark regarding people on this site getting off their lazy butts. I have never rubbished his thinking. Get it right mate.

Semantics are words and words can change meanings and since we have no visual demonstrations on here then our words should be as close to accurate and as consistent as possible.

and about Cmays I was not in the least bit reffering your comments on him. I was just reffering to the post where he said my take on the issue was right. So you tell me to get it right, well your assumption was wrong. If he had said my take was wrong I would have asked him why because I know he knows more about this golf swing then I may ever even if I am reincarnated a few times over.
Now on our discussion I will let it rest.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: myths in golf

if you want to beleive something that continually goes in an arc magically goes in a straight line for a couple inches then fine. If you want to believe that somthing that continually rotates magically stops rotating for a couple inches then fine as well. Books or people can express what they want but laws of physics and motion are laws. So on the way down the clubface rotates coming into the ball, then stops for a second, then goes back to rotating? THe arc stops for a second and becomes a straight line, then goes back to an arc? These things could not happen without manipulation and at 100 mph, that would be very difficult. All the weight shift does is change the pivot center from right leg to left leg. Swing a weight on a string with an inclined plane and try to get it to go in a straight line. By defying laws of motion you are complicating the issue rather then simplifying it.

Hi Shootin

I have added to this thread which I started by saying what a great thread it is with a good healthy discussion, however I am a little disapointed that there appears to be an un-healthy disagreement.

I have stated my believes on this late hit / rotation through impact etc in my posts, we all must respect each others opinions and beliefs, like different pros teach different swings, after all its only our interpretation.

I find the tone of the post above quite disrespectfull,

my opinion and only my opinion the arm is connected to the club via the hands and wrists, therefore articulated, there can never (in my opinion) be a true arc, there will be squaring of the face for a few inches if swung correctly due to the hands being ahead of the ball at impact and as I mentioned in a previous post there is no stopping the hands or the rotation, it just centers as the release happens, for a nano second the face remains square as the club head catches up and overtakes.

Please continue this discussion but remember we all contribute something for other people should they wish to accept it. Tiger Woods once said he throws away 95% of what people tell him but Secretly tries the other 5%.


Regards

Ian.

[BrianW]

Re: myths in golf

I apologise to members for my part in the previous disagreement, in retrospect I should have just ignored the comments.

______________________________________________

I would like to continue with my thread though, here is a little more information to support my belief that the clubface hitting straight through the ball towards the target at impact is a good action, and that only using a rotary contact is a myth. Here is another supporting piece of documentation. I welcome any constructive debate.

The importance of achieving a Square Impact

In golf we are trying to propel the ball straight from point A to point B ... from where it lies to a selected target area. This establishes the concept of a line from the ball to the target ....the INTENDED LINE OF FLIGHT.
Clearly, if the ball is to move along the intended line of flight, the club-face (or blade) MUST BE MOVING SQUARELY ALONG THE INTENDED LINE OF FLIGHT DURING IMPACT....and as long as possible before and after impact.
This holds good for every golf stroke, from the putt to the drive. This is the guiding principle for everything that we do in building a new swing.
If ever your swing "goes off" it is because these conditions are not being met. Indeed, we can say that a good swing brings about these conditions, and a bad swing does not. It is as simple as that!

A Straight, Sustained Contact With The Ball Through Impact

The club head must be moving squarely along the intended line of flight BEFORE THE BALL IS STRUCK ...and REMAIN on that line well AFTER IMPACT.
The longer the club head remains on the intended line of flight through impact, the better.
This DRIVING FORWARD OF THE BALL is what produces the long accurate shot that can hold its direction in wind. This is the quality of impact that compresses the golf ball on the club-face like a fried egg at the moment of impact. This is the type of impact that leads to powerful, accurate shot-making, and low scores.
That is what the golf swing is all about. That is why we stand square to the intended line of flight. That is why the swing plane must be properly aligned. That is why we must be aware of "CLUB-LINE" .. or the direction that the club-head is taking through the ball.
Never lose sight of this vital concept of CLUB-LINE THROUGH THE BALL.
It is not enough merely to hit the ball ....the club must swing squarely along the intended line of flight through impact and beyond

[james.welsh]

Re: myths in golf

According to Michael Hebron's "Swing Secrets and Lies Six Timeless Lessons"
Within the Chapter called Physical Basics a section titled "Should the clubface impact the back of the ball? -- NO!"
"Lie: Golfers should impact the back of the ball, with a clubface that is square to the target at impact. Not So! -- a misconception."
"Secret: As the club returns to the ball, it is travelling on its arc, (not a straight line). It is returning to the inside back corner of the ball with a slightly open clubface at impact. Any attempt to hit the back of the ball with a square clubface can cause the left wrist to bend back away from the ball and loss of force and pressure through inpact."

See the scan from the book attached. It illustrates the point with a couple of diagrams and a shot of a divot by Tiger in 1999.

Incidentally this is not copyright infringement, it is "fair use" and is duly credited as Mr. Hebron's intellectual property. I highly reccomend reading this book it is very informative and can be ordered online for about $50US.

[GolfJunkieSr]

Re: myths in golf

I impact the ball on back inside quadrant. However, I sure hope Jim Furyk does not find out that hitting a ball square in the back is wrong. TGC showed his club/ball impact position tonight in slow motion. Dead square in the back with the iron club head traveling down the target line before, and after impact before turning in. Then again his swing is one of a kind.

On another note; When I was living back east many years ago I saw Moe Norman, with his palm grip, hit quite a few balls pretty much dead straight. He told the audience he was able to hit those straight balls because he hit the back of the ball, and kept his club head traveling down the target line. He even gave us onlookers a slo-mo of his swing that showed this. Again, not an normal swing, or grip but most effective.
My point is there is more than one way to swing a club to get the ball off the peg, and to the bottom of the cup in the least amount of strokes. GJS

[bill reed]

Re: myths in golf

you make some good points cmays and i'd add that bob torrance said, teach the golfer not teach the swing. one swing dont fit all golfers.
bill

[Teevino]

Re: myths in golf

From a true novice here. Lately I have been swinging my club on a more in to out path. My perception/feeing when I swing is that I am bringing the clubhead out to the ball and it feels like when I do this I am going to hit/push the ball way right. However, when I relax and trust the swing the ball actually goes straighter and further than I have ever been able to hit it before. Before I had a very controlled swing that attempted to swing through the ball toward the target. I could hit it straight but with lousy distance. I mean real lousy distance.

I don't understand a lot of the argument above and quite honestly don't want to. I wouldn't want all that going on in my head when swinging the club but nevertheless find some of it quite interesting.

Did you know (I'm sure shootin does) that all of the solid objects that surround you right now - the desk, computer, chair etc.... are not really solid. They are really a mass of swirling molecules. And did you know that according to quantum physics that a big player in the appearance of these objects as solid is our own perception. And that with enough mindpower we could actually change the shape, appearance and even the base characteristics of these objects - i.e. Jesus walks on water..

I really think that is why we mere humans have so many debates in which both sides are adamantly convinced that they are rigtht. What I percieve and have learned as truth is not what you percieve and have learned as truth. We say we are open to the reality of others but we really are not. Because damnit I know this for a fact. Ah, but methinks we all see through a glass darkly. (I or II Corinthinians, chapter and verse escapes me at the moment.

I think I've just blown my mind.

[slater170]

Re: myths in golf

From a true novice here. Lately I have been swinging my club on a more in to out path. My perception/feeing when I swing is that I am bringing the clubhead out to the ball and it feels like when I do this I am going to hit/push the ball way right. However, when I relax and trust the swing the ball actually goes straighter and further than I have ever been able to hit it before. Before I had a very controlled swing that attempted to swing through the ball toward the target. I could hit it straight but with lousy distance. I mean real lousy distance.

I don't understand a lot of the argument above and quite honestly don't want to. I wouldn't want all that going on in my head when swinging the club but nevertheless find some of it quite interesting.

Did you know (I'm sure shootin does) that all of the solid objects that surround you right now - the desk, computer, chair etc.... are not really solid. They are really a mass of swirling molecules. And did you know that according to quantum physics that a big player in the appearance of these objects as solid is our own perception. And that with enough mindpower we could actually change the shape, appearance and even the base characteristics of these objects - i.e. Jesus walks on water..

I really think that is why we mere humans have so many debates in which both sides are adamantly convinced that they are rigtht. What I percieve and have learned as truth is not what you percieve and have learned as truth. We say we are open to the reality of others but we really are not. Because damnit I know this for a fact. Ah, but methinks we all see through a glass darkly. (I or II Corinthinians, chapter and verse escapes me at the moment.

I think I've just blown my mind.

nicely said jim!
too much info for me i cant process that level of information! ive stopped trying to!
ive gone from rank novice to scoring in the 80's in just over 2 years and thats down to being selective about what to take in.
my game is only where its at because buying the right equipment, understanding club fitting a little more(thanks lp42), shootins help with anti-sway drills ,ian hancocks help with mental side and tip off about the pump drill and just lately subscribing to brianw's ball position method.
all very simple things but made a ton of difference to my game.
p.s had great encouragement from robert and nicole
so its a simple as that!

[Teevino]

Re: myths in golf

nicely said jim!
too much info for me i cant process that level of information! ive stopped trying to!
ive gone from rank novice to scoring in the 80's in just over 2 years and thats down to being selective about what to take in.
my game is only where its at because buying the right equipment, understanding club fitting a little more(thanks lp42), shootins help with anti-sway drills ,ian hancocks help with mental side and tip off about the pump drill and just lately subscribing to brianw's ball position method.
all very simple things but made a ton of difference to my game.
p.s had great encouragement from robert and nicole
so its a simple as that!

Thanx Slater. I'm with you, all of these guy's have taught me a lot about the game and I continue to appreciate their expert "suggestions."

That is quite an achievement in two years. I am hangin in the 90's right now (this is one year) and shoot up to 100 on less good days. Not getting to play as much right now. Had a great 95 last weekend though and hope to do that or better today. Right now my biggest problem is digging dirt with my irons. It really is kiliing my approach to the green. Practice swing is great, then I step to the ball and dig dirt. Hmmmmm.

Anyhow, thanx again and have a good day at the course today. I know you're going . I know I am.. Sunny and low 70's here in North Carolina today.

[slater170]

Re: myths in golf

Thanx Slater. I'm with you, all of these guy's have taught me a lot about the game and I continue to appreciate their expert "suggestions."

That is quite an achievement in two years. I am hangin in the 90's right now (this is one year) and shoot up to 100 on less good days. Not getting to play as much right now. Had a great 95 last weekend though and hope to do that or better today. Right now my biggest problem is digging dirt with my irons. It really is kiliing my approach to the green. Practice swing is great, then I step to the ball and dig dirt. Hmmmmm.

Anyhow, thanx again and have a good day at the course today. I know you're going . I know I am.. Sunny and low 70's here in North Carolina today.

hi jim
i should have stated in my post that i admire and appreciate the posters who spend a lot of their own time for bringing their expertise to this forum.

its just not for me.
have a good one mate
my game is tommorow

[Jeff Mann]

Re: myths in golf

Hi,

I have just joined this forum, and this is my first post.

I have produced two composite photographs that may shed light on the question as to how long the clubface remains square to the ball in the peri-impact zone.

I took Aaron Baddeley's swing video and analysed it using the V1 Home swing analyser (freely available from http://v2.v1home.com)

I then used a screen capture tool to capture his clubhead at different time points as the club was nearing, at, and just after impact. I couldn't get perfect results because the swing is too fast and the number of single frames available limited. I then produced a composite photograph of the single frame capture images using Photoshop.

Look at the results.

See - http://jeffmann.net/AB-ImpactSeriesFO.jpg

In the face-on view, you can see that the clubface is nearly square a few inches before impact. Also, note that Aaron Baddeley has a neutral grip and that he doesn't manipulate the clubface through the impact zone by manipulating his hands, so his hands are still neutral after impact. You can see that the clubface is still square to the swing arc well after impact suggesting that the clubface remains square to the ball for at least a few inches in the peri-impact zone (just before impact, at impact, just after impact).

For the down-the-line view, see http://jeffmann.net/AB-ImpactSeries.jpg

You can see that the clubhead is moving along an arc and that it is only perfectly square to the ball-target line at impact. However, although the clubhead swing arc is rounded and in-to-in, the clubhead is probably travelling along a relatively straight line for a few inches in the peri-impact zone. Also, one must remember that when using a driver, the swingarc is shallow and U-shaped, rather than steep and V-shaped (as can be seen with a short iron shot that is hit with a more descending blow).

In other words, for all practical purposes, one can reasonably conclude that the clubface is square to the ball at impact, and that it is unreasonable to assume that the clubface angle is changing while the clubface is still in contact with the ball.

Jeff.

[BrianW]

Re: myths in golf

To finalise from me on this particular thread:

Firstly: Thank you Cmays and others for your comments.

__________________________________

I am trying to promote that something which helps me with ball striking may help you, if it does not or you disagree, that's fine. I guess the best way is to give it a try. When I swing through with the feeling of keeping the clubface down the line just a little longer I get a nice straight accurate ball flight, it also helps me to keep a firm left wrist which I think most agree is important. Let me know how you get on please?

Lets explore a few more myths now.

[Ian Hancock]

Re: myths in golf

Hi,

I have just joined this forum, and this is my first post.

I have produced two composite photographs that may shed light on the question as to how long the clubface remains square to the ball in the peri-impact zone.

I took Aaron Baddeley's swing video and analysed it using the V1 Home swing analyser (freely available from http://v2.v1home.com)

I then used a screen capture tool to capture his clubhead at different time points as the club was nearing, at, and just after impact. I couldn't get perfect results because the swing is too fast and the number of single frames available limited. I then produced a composite photograph of the single frame capture images using Photoshop.

Look at the results.

See - http://jeffmann.net/AB-ImpactSeriesFO.jpg

In the face-on view, you can see that the clubface is nearly square a few inches before impact. Also, note that Aaron Baddeley has a neutral grip and that he doesn't manipulate the clubface through the impact zone by manipulating his hands, so his hands are still neutral after impact. You can see that the clubface is still square to the swing arc well after impact suggesting that the clubface remains square to the ball for at least a few inches in the peri-impact zone (just before impact, at impact, just after impact).

For the down-the-line view, see http://jeffmann.net/AB-ImpactSeries.jpg

You can see that the clubhead is moving along an arc and that it is only perfectly square to the ball-target line at impact. However, although the clubhead swing arc is rounded and in-to-in, the clubhead is probably travelling along a relatively straight line for a few inches in the peri-impact zone. Also, one must remember that when using a driver, the swingarc is shallow and U-shaped, rather than steep and V-shaped (as can be seen with a short iron shot that is hit with a more descending blow).

In other words, for all practical purposes, one can reasonably conclude that the clubface is square to the ball at impact, and that it is unreasonable to assume that the clubface angle is changing while the clubface is still in contact with the ball.

Jeff.

Hi Jeff and Welcome,

Great contribution, I agree with what you have stated here, especially the picture of ARRON..........This proves one point for me, 'the clubface stays square for a few inches at impact' my reasoning for this is: the right wrist remains cupped through impact and only allows the crossing of the arms after impact, creating the U area of impact.

Jeff, you have joined into the best thread I have ever seen here for years, with some really good thought provoking stuff.

C mays, thanks for your imput, you are correct with the holding a rotated 5 iron giving a perfect arc, this is only the position for the wrists etc on the downswing and maintained until after impact?????

I think so, thus very little rotation until after impact due to the body turning as well thru the hitting area, holding the face square???

Is this how you explained it?


I like this thought

Ian.

Just to add I am sure most of you have seen this caption but it does show a square clubface and very little rotation until after impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ4LzJ6eUzc

Ian.

[Scragger63]

Re: myths in golf

Bearing in mind all that has been said in this thread to date, I offer here just one small piece of information that may help to bring closer together the two halves of this apparent divide...

Firstly, we all understand that the clubface clearly is rotating laterally around the hosel as the central pivot point of its rotation at the same time as the club head rotates around its own arc swing path, notionally centered at the shoulders.

Given the compression of the ball, and the speed of the clubhead, the ball is in contact with the clubface for a period of time greater than what could be notionally called "instantaneous".

Thus the apparent divide in how best to explain the rotation of the clubface and its effect on the ball and its subsequent flight...

I have a copy of Harvey Pennick's Little Green Golfing Video and the following information is quoted from this...

The ball is in contact with the clubface for 1/2 of 1/1000th of a second.

In fact, the video quotes Harvey as saying that impact itself is best forgotten.

So, all we are trying to achieve in trying to hit the ball "rifle" straight along our intended target line is returning the clubface square to the target line at the point of impact, along an in to in swing path.

To hit a fade, square clubface at impact on an out to in swing path...

To hit a draw, square clubface at impact on an in to out swing path...

The, all the other combinations of face alignment and swing path that cause all those other shots that we golfers collectively swear at after we hit them...

Harvey goes one step further and suggests we forget about "hitting the ball" and instead simply concetrate on "clipping the tee", clearly in reference to tee shots, however, equally effective when paying any other stroke in thinking about just swinging the club with the ball being in the way, as opposed to conciously trying to hit the ball.

Hopefully, this makes sense...

Cheers