level hips, a myth or not

[shootin4par]

a lot of golf instruction says keep hips level in the swing but some golf instruction says not to. In the mike austin method he wants the hips to tilt in the swing. So I was messing around and doing some stuff and noticed something. I took a shaft and put it acroos my waist so it was level with my hips. Then I moved my hips back and forth and I noticed something. If I kept the shaft level when I shifted back then I could sway outside of my right foot on the backswing. But When I let the left hip dip as the right raised, which would make the shaft not be level anymore, My weight did not get outside of my feet no matter how much I tried. This keeps the hips moving more like a pendulum which is different from a Tiger swing model.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Most PGA tour players use the Tiger Woods golf swing model - limit hip rotation during the backswing to increase the torso's coiling power and always rotate the hips horizontally without any tilting. Why should the idea of hip tilting be conceived to be an advantage?

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

interesting statement there Jim.
If you watch tiger swing his hips and shoulders turn back at the same time untill his hips are coiled and then his hips stop and the shoulders continue to turn back. So I really dont see any restriction from him in regards to his hip turn on the backswing. One advantage of hip tilting is you eliminate the sway if you tilt right and that is a really big advantage to me.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Shootin4 par

Surely you are wrong about Tiger Woods.

I think that Tiger Woods radically restricts his hip movement during the backswing.

See - http://jeffmann.net/Anrisani-TigerBStop.jpg

Note that his belt buckle is still facing the ball-target line, and he probably hasn't rotated his hips more than 20 degrees.

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Shootin4 par

Surely you are wrong about Tiger Woods.

I think that Tiger Woods radically restricts his hip movement during the backswing.

See - http://jeffmann.net/Anrisani-TigerBStop.jpg

Note that his belt buckle is still facing the ball-target line, and he probably hasn't rotated his hips more than 20 degrees.

Jeff.

In that photo you posted he is already into his transition. You can tell by the flex in the shaft

watch in this description of his swing how his lower body moves at the same time on his backswing http://www.golftipscc.com/profiles/p...filesmain.html

[shootin4par]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Shootin:

Upright swingers they shift the weight in a lateral direction, level hips are at a risk of swaying.

Angle swingers are rotating around causing the right hip to come up.

With the Narrow stance, Mike Austin is swinging upright to a given point and the angle of the hands kick in the rotation of the hips.

Remember what I told you:

Stand with the feet together and from waist high in the backswing turn the shoulders around and watch the club come up on and angle. The hips will turn around.

Move the left foot out away from the body while the club is on an angle at the top of the backswing and it will be on more of an upright plane and the hips will remain level.

The more you are able to turn the front knee in, like in the narrow stance the higher the back hip will rise.

Good for you for doing and seeing. Hogan would have been proud of you.

Now Hogan turn both knees in a little, what happens to the back hip in the backswing?

Tried the hogan thing a little and I think it makes the hips more level, is that right? I also looked into what you said on the narrow versus wide stance, wide allow the right hip to raise more and the left knee to be more free
thanks G

[Jeff Mann]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Shootin4par

I certainly don't dispute that Tiger moves his hips at the same time as his shoulders. I only stated that he deliberately retricts his hip turn to < 30 degrees, and that he doesn't permit his hips to keep on rotating. He restricts his hip turn by keeping his right foot perpendicular to the ball-target line, by kicking his right knee inwards slightly at address, and by keeping his right knee slightly flexed throughout the entire backswing. By contrast, he turns his shoulders 90-110 degrees in the backswing. The differential in shoulder versus hip rotation is responsible for his very high X-factor.

Jeff.

[GoNavy]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Shootin4par

I certainly don't dispute that Tiger moves his hips at the same time as his shoulders. I only stated that he deliberately retricts his hip turn to < 30 degrees, and that he doesn't permit his hips to keep on rotating. He restricts his hip turn by keeping his right foot perpendicular to the ball-target line, by kicking his right knee inwards slightly at address, and by keeping his right knee slightly flexed throughout the entire backswing. By contrast, he turns his shoulders 90-110 degrees in the backswing. The differential in shoulder versus hip rotation is responsible for his very high X-factor.

Jeff.

Don't know what Tigers hip rotation is, but it has nothing do with his right leg. I am 50 years old, I know for a fact Tiger is in better shape and more flexible then me, and I keep my right foot 90 degrees to the line, with a kicked in knee, and a flexed right leg, I manage to get 45 degrees on hip turn and 90 degrees on shoulder turn. Tiger hasn't cornered the market on that address setup, most low handicap and pro's alike used that, it is a basic address fundelmental used by allot of people, the only time I would recommend flaring the right toe out is if you simply do not have the flexibility to make a shoulder turn, otherwise you need to stick too basic setup.

Needed to add, I suspect Tiger hips turn is just like everyone else, most people, not all, that flare out the right toe and think they can not make a turn, when they fix their posture and address setup, amazingly can make a 90 degree turn.

[shootin4par]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

it is interesting when talking about shoulder turn because turning the shoulders 110 degrees is a myth. Biomechanically Your spine can only turn so much, I believe it is about 70*. The Illusion of more shoulder turn is caused by the right shoulder blade drawing more on the back while the left shoulder blade coming more towards the chest.

On tiger restricting hip turn i guess he does it like most everyone else. By keeping the left heel on the ground and the position or his right foot at address. I really dont see how that is restricting hip turn, because the body will not let them turn anymore they are restricted?

[Jeff Mann]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

See this photo of Tiger Woods

http://jeffmann.net/Woods-head.jpg

Note that he has turned his shoulders at >90 degrees (? 100-110 degrees). It may be true that part of the shoulder turn is not related to true spinal twisting but due to movement of the scapula across the back. However, it certainly appears that he turns his shoulders >90 degrees.

Secondly, note that his belt buckle is still facing forward suggesting that the hips have only turned <30 degrees. It may be true that the limited hip movement is only partially due to his kicking-in the right knee at address and partially due to keeping the right foot perpendicular to the ball-target line. I presume that other factors are involved - ? tightening his inner thighs during the backswing. Nonetheless, Tiger Woods definitely limits hip rotation during the backswing and doesn't allow his hips to rotate-back to their maximum degree.

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

And now back to our originally scheduled programming, has anyone else experimented with the hips being unlevel or the bell hip theory?

[GoNavy]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

See this photo of Tiger Woods

http://jeffmann.net/Woods-head.jpg

Note that he has turned his shoulders at >90 degrees (? 100-110 degrees). It may be true that part of the shoulder turn is not related to true spinal twisting but due to movement of the scapula across the back. However, it certainly appears that he turns his shoulders >90 degrees.

Secondly, note that his belt buckle is still facing forward suggesting that the hips have only turned <30 degrees. It may be true that the limited hip movement is only partially due to his kicking-in the right knee at address and partially due to keeping the right foot perpendicular to the ball-target line. I presume that other factors are involved - ? tightening his inner thighs during the backswing. Nonetheless, Tiger Woods definitely limits hip rotation during the backswing and doesn't allow his hips to rotate-back to their maximum degree.

Jeff.

OK Jeff here is the overhead pic of Tiger, looks like 45 degree to me, and he hasn't even finished the backswing yet.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

GoNavy

What are you measuring with that yellow line? What is turned 45 degrees?

That yellow line is not measuring his shoulder turn, and it cannot be measuring his hip turn, so what does it represent? All I can see is that you have placed a yellow line against his right scapula.

Jeff.

[GoNavy]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

GoNavy

What are you measuring with that yellow line? What is turned 45 degrees?

That yellow line is not measuring his shoulder turn, and it cannot be measuring his hip turn, so what does it represent? All I can see is that you have placed a yellow line against his right scapula.

Jeff.

lol...his butt cheeks, unless he has one cheek bigger then the other, they are the same as his hips, you can see both cheeks in the address, slightly closed and again at the top, the difference between address line and the other is roughly 45 degrees.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Go Navy

You have got a good imagination. There is no way that you can see his right butt cheek in the second photo as it is totally obscured by his upper torso (I produced that image and I have the original photo from Tiger Woods' book). There is a kink in his shirt that may look his butt cheek.

Here is another series of photos of Tiger Woods from a down-the-line view.

See - http://jeffmann.net/TigerWoodsSequence.jpg

Are you seriously arguing that Tiger Woods turns his hips 45 degrees? Tiger Woods himself states that he limits his hip turn to less than 30 degrees. I think that I remember a measured figure of 28 degrees, but I could be wrong about the exact figure.

Jeff.