level hips, a myth or not

[GoNavy]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

LOL...I don't know if does or doesn't, was just goofing around. I turn my hips 45 degree and just barely manage to get 90 on my shoulders, if I tried to limit myself I am sure I would hurt something. I don't really buy into that whole x factor torgue thing anyways, sure I believe you have some tension, but I don't think it is something you need to really strive for or purposely force, if you setup right and have good posture and balance you can pretty much get your shoulders to 90 degrees without worrying to much about what the hips are doing.

[jambalaya]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

I read something on the TPI site and they talked about "internal" hip rotation. Does anybody understand this distinction. Related to hip turn, I read about the right foot and their opinion is that a right foot perpindicular to the target line is preferred. In looking at my stance, the right foot seems to be flared out betwen 15 and 30 degrees. Taking a few practice swings, the flared right foot seems to make it more difficult to get the weight over the right foot in the backswing. Problem or not?

[GoNavy]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

I read something on the TPI site and they talked about "internal" hip rotation. Does anybody understand this distinction. Related to hip turn, I read about the right foot and their opinion is that a right foot perpindicular to the target line is preferred. In looking at my stance, the right foot seems to be flared out betwen 15 and 30 degrees. Taking a few practice swings, the flared right foot seems to make it more difficult to get the weight over the right foot in the backswing. Problem or not?

The reason I say and many others to square off the right foot, meaning the inside line of the right foot, not outside. It provides a better brace, in otherwords the weight shift will remain more centered over the foot, flaring allows the weight to move to the outside of the foot, very hard to get it back to left once that happens, also the knee doesn't wonder as much, the left foot you want the weight moving that way, so flare it out to make it easier to flow that way and onto the follow thru, as observed in the finish the left foot will be rolled onto the outside edge.

[shootin4par]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

if you take both feet and turn them outwards you create less space in your sittinng bones. Stand up and do this and you will notice your butt cheeks squeeze together. Now angle both feet inwards as much as you can and you will feel your butt cheeks spread. If you flare both feet out too much when you swing you will pinch the base of your spine. If you turn them in too much you will not be able to ratate the hips enough because they are limited by your femurs. So you have to have a balnce between enough space and ability to rotate. So yes, flaring out the right foot too much can cause a problem

[Jeff Mann]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Most PGA tour players want to limit hip rotation in the backswing (in order to increase torso coiling power) so they often keep the right foot perpendicular to the ball-target line +/- angle-in the right knee towards the left knee at address. By contrast, older players with less flexibility will often need to flare-out the right foot so that they can get sufficient hip turn in the backswing when using a classical swing style (at least 45 degrees hip rotation and 90 degrees shoulder rotation).

Another advantage of a right foot that is perpendicular to the ball-target line at address is that it makes it easier to rotate the right hip forward in the downswing. PGA tour players also often flare the left foot outward so that there is less restriction to left hip rotation during the downswing (especially when using short irons - because downswing body/arm/clubhead momentum is less when using a short iron compared to a driver).

Jeff.

[jambalaya]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Well I am kind of excited about going out to the course or range. Just doing some slow motion drills in my living room the results of getting the right foot perpendicular seem dramatic. I now immediately feel the weight transferring to the right foot as I start my backswing. That transfer has been a major problem for me. Also it seems to decrease my tendency for the reverse pivot.

Nobody has answered my question about "internal" hip rotation. As opposed to what? What does internal hip rotation look like when compared to "external" hip rotation? I just don't see a 45 degree hip turn as a reasonable goal unless one gets really loose with leg position and sway.

[Jeff Mann]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

I haven't read anybody's comments about internal hip rotation, so I don't know what they are trying to communicate on that other forum.

However, I do know that if you flare-out the right foot at address that you have essentially adopted a position of external hip rotation because flaring-out the right foot usually turns the femur in a clockwise (outwards) direction. By contrast, if you turn the right foot inwards at address, then you are in a state of internal hip rotation, because flaring-in the right foot causes the femur to turn counterclockwise at the hip joint.

Jeff.

[shootin4par]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

On the backswing we internally rotate the right hip and externally rotate the left hip, on the downswing we do the opposite externally rotate the right hip and internally rotate the left. The internal rotation is not complicated, it is only in reference to which direction the hip is rotating. So when the right hip rotates behind you that is internal because it is rotating into itself, when it rotates in front of you that is external because it is rotating out of/away from itself. When you start getting into these areas you can really see how little most modern golf instructors know about the human body. And if they dont know how the body workds then I am not so sure I would take lessons or advice, but that is only my opinion. The more I learn about the body and relation to golf, the more I realize how little I used to know even theough I thought I knew it.

[BrianW]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

I think the issue is not so much the difference in rotation between the hips and shoulders, it is the rotational alignment between the lower, mid and upper body that is most important.

As you rotate through the swing the hips need to maintain the "Belt Line". The hips must not be allowed to tilt, if they do then you are destroying the balance between the three segments of the body.

Think of it as a rotating cylinder split into three sections, the Lower (legs and knees), Mid section (Torso) and Top section (Shoulders). If the mid section rotates level and correctly the other two stack up nicely on top of one another and place the centre of the body in the ideal position to deliver the club into the ball. If you knocked the middle section out of line by tilting the hips, extreme pressure is placed on the body, forcing it to compensate with excessive hand action through the ball.

If you can keep the three sections stacked on top of each other it is much easier to achieve a great backswing, impact and follow through.

[shootin4par]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

As you rotate through the swing the hips need to maintain the "Belt Line". The hips must not be allowed to tilt, if they do then you are destroying the balance between the three segments of the body.

that is conventional thinking but if you look into Mike austins swing, perhaps the most effecient of all time, ever, and the book search for the perfect swing, it throws this right out the window. The hips can tilt but it must be right. Keep the miind open to that possibility and look into it, you may learn something. I once thought just like you and most everyone else on this subject untill I watched mike swing in a skelaton suit.

[BrianW]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

that is conventional thinking but if you look into Mike austins swing, perhaps the most effecient of all time, ever, and the book search for the perfect swing, it throws this right out the window. The hips can tilt but it must be right. Keep the miind open to that possibility and look into it, you may learn something. I once thought just like you and most everyone else on this subject untill I watched mike swing in a skelaton suit.

It is conventional thinking because it's correct. Whatever inclination the belt line has at address should be maintained throughout the swing, otherwise balance is disturbed (Shootin,, you have made a number of posts suggesting that balance is a major factor in the golf swing).

Just think about the relationship between the hips, shoulders and legs, they are all aligned through the spine, balance in the body is maintained by an area just below the sternum, if you throw any section out of alignment you destroy balance and something else has to compensate.

Can you walk with tilted hips, would you throw a ball with tilted hips, would an athelete throw a discus or a javelin or a tennis player hit a ball with tilted hips. No they would not. It is also a way to promote back injury. Conventional thinking, absolutely.

[jambalaya]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

It seems to me the only way to get the hips tilted in an exaggerated way is through a swaying action. If you really bump out your hips in an exaggerated way it is easy to see the tilt. We don't want much of a sway in our swings I think. Sure we can bump a little with no real harm but to really let our hips go in a lateral direction seems problematic. A few degrees here or there is probably alright but nothing else. If we maintain the same flex in our knees throughout our swing seems we would minimize hip tilt. So I have to go with the level hip crowd.

[shootin4par]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

But brian,
you did not acknowledge the mike austin swing and why it was so effecient. You just say unlevel hips are wrong but with no evidence.
The spine stays in alignment in the way that I am talking about, IF done correctly. can you sway with unlevel hips, yes, can you sway with level hips, yes.
For anyone who puts money into their golf game I suggest you look at the golf swing from all angles. Mike austin swinging in a skeleton suit is eye opening and should not be discredited before you have even looked at it. That is close minded and in life being closed minded leads to regression, not progression. He who knows all and understands all will know what is best.

[BrianW]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

A bit prophetic shootin, but incorrect in context, I have looked at him and I am not (whatever you think) closed minded to new ideas.

I have looked at Austin's swing and can see that it has some use in his Long Driving ability, he seems to use a fairly normal backswing then gets into an exaggerated reverse C type position in the downswing, all his weight is on the back foot. OK, this can work when hitting with a driver off a tee but I would not like to try it with a mid iron or wedge.

"Periods of tranquillity are seldom prolific of creative achievement. Mankind has to be stirred up".

EDIT:
Oh! and I gave a fair bit of evedince to back my opinion.


Cmays

I understand what you say but these people do not create misalignment between their hips and upper torso, they rotate them all around an axis, yes they slide their hips but retain their belt line and therefore balance.

[BrianW]

Re: level hips, a myth or not

Cmays,

We are talking of hip tilt, the motion of tilting the hips out of line with the torso and knees, it is fine to tilt them all together so they rotate through the same axis but not out of line.

I quote from Nick Bradley's book, "The 7 Laws of the Golf swing" page 129.

Level belt line gives arms freedom in the downswing.

"As the golf swing pulls into reverse, it gathers all of the assets that it has amassed in preparation for impact and beyond. The role of the body at this vital stage of the swing is to fully release all of it's torque and power while providing stability, balance and a commitment to fully completing the swing.

A disciplined body motion will permit total freedom in the arm-swing during the downswing. In this context, discipline and freedom go hand in hand and this combination is well worth working on. Indeed, your hands and arms will only find the freedom to hit the ball powerfully if the body rotates correctly. Keeping your belt line level is a key to creating the correct motion. If your belt line becomes tilted and rocks the spine backward, the right arm jams into the right side of your body, where it becomes trapped and weak."

Hey Cmays! Get some shuteye, you will be nodding off on the range later