Are 4 magic moves magic?

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

I did not realize a thread about this method was posted.

As I have mentioned often on this forum, I am a follower of Joe Dante's teachings.

I have studied and tried just about every other method, and this is basically the one that I have settled into. It has simplified my game with a "no thinking required" swing, which I can turn on, with little practice or warm ups. In play, I am able to enjoy the round, without stress about; what the hands should be doing, completing the backswing with a full wrist cock, starting the downswing, etc.

The ball striking is consistent, and for distance and accruracy is as good as it's ever been. Physically, I don't feel stiff and tight, and there is less effort expended, so overall the game is more enjoyable on the sociable side.

Perhaps, I am just predisposed to an "old style swing", versus the modern power swings. Could it be, that because I am using more flexible shafts on my equipment, that the shafts are making the old time swing techniques more complementary?

I see references frequently to 3 SK's elsewhere in this forum, and if I'm not mistaken it is intimated in this thread that there are similarities between the two methods. If so, I could see the reason for the endorsements for 3 SK's.

Ted

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

I did not realize a thread about this method was posted.

As I have mentioned often on this forum, I am a follower of Joe Dante's teachings.

I have studied and tried just about every other method, and this is basically the one that I have settled into. It has simplified my game with a "no thinking required" swing, which I can turn on, with little practice or warm ups. In play, I am able to enjoy the round, without stress about; what the hands should be doing, completing the backswing with a full wrist cock, starting the downswing, etc.

The ball striking is consistent, and for distance and accruracy is as good as it's ever been. Physically, I don't feel stiff and tight, and there is less effort expended, so overall the game is more enjoyable on the sociable side.

Perhaps, I am just predisposed to an "old style swing", versus the modern power swings. Could it be, that because I am using more flexible shafts on my equipment, that the shafts are making the old time swing techniques more complementary?

I see references frequently to 3 SK's elsewhere in this forum, and if I'm not mistaken it is intimated in this thread that there are similarities between the two methods. If so, I could see the reason for the endorsements for 3 SK's.

Ted

Ted, you are right on. I am experiencing exactly what you describe above. I definitely feel less tired after a round and don't tend to experience back pain or elbow pain as I did before. Much less thinking, all I have to do is focus on the wrist break, taking the club up to the top with my shoulder turn and the hip move to initiate the downswing. No other swing thoughts, tips and bandaids needed.

You may be on to something about the lighter shafts. I get the best results using an older set of graphite Goldwin irons that are very light. It just seems that the backward wrist break is easier to execute consistently with light (and perhaps headlight) shafts. It would be nice if there was more video posted online demonstrating the actual 4 magic moves in action. I'm disappointed that the only videos I seem to find on this are testimonials on youtube.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

I guess I'm reviving a rather old thread but I just found out about the "4 magic moves" about 9 months ago. I'm usually pretty skeptical of things pitched the way this method is, but tried it and for the most part-it works! I have gone from a 22.3 (where I have been stuck for 10 years) to a 15.2. Just a few observations though which I'd like to share and invite comment on from those who have tried this method:

1. This method advocates a very tight grip. I've found on the other hand, that a light grip helps me execute the early backward wrist break more consistently. Once in a while during a round, I find myself reverting to moving the club away using my arms first. It helps to remember to keep my elbows touching my body until the wrist break is completed.

2. I started driving the ball well almost immediately and hit terrific iron shots off a tee and a good lie. For several rounds however, I found that hitting off a tight lie caused problems when using the early wrist break. Don't know why, but I started hitting thin and right almost a s**nk whenever I got this lie. After much trial and error, found that by placing the ball very forward in my stance-even on short irons-I hit the ball quite well. Kind of the opposite from my instinctive response, which was to play the ball further back because of the thin contact. Don't know how or why this works.

3. The advice on the short game in the book quite frankly isn't helpful at all. Using the early backward wrist break on pitches and chips has been disastrous for me with very inconsistent contact. I have gone back to my old firm wristed, straight back and through method for hitting pitches and chips.

4. I have been using a reverse overlap grip (long story) in conjunction with this method and this has worked very well for me.

This method does not seem to be very compatible with other modes of instruction, so any insights or observations regarding this would be greatly appreciated.

Hi JaySpin,

I was so excited to see this topic, that I did not fully digest your post.

1. Regarding the light grip, I totally agree, and I keep my wrists and arms relaxed all through the swing. In particular, this is helpful on the downswing, as the arms maintain the lag as long as possible, while the lower body is shifting weight and turns, and the release seems to naturally happen.

2. I've always played the ball somewhat forward, like Nicklaus did all those years, so I can't say if it the same reason why making that adjustment worked for you. I suppose I had always had a good lower body move on the downswing, so was getting back over the ball, even with that forward ball position. Since I studied this method, I have improved maintaining my lag well into the downswing. Perhaps, this for you, along with the improved lower body move entailed by this method, requires the forward position of the ball?

3. For short chips, I have the wrist break (the amount is a feel thing for me, depending on the distance), but it would be with a light relaxed natural break. By experimenting, I also make sure I am lightly rotating my forearms slightly while taking the arms back. If I did not do that, the clubface would be hooded. All in all, I have made my chips a smooth relaxed swing of the club, whereas previously, I was too stiff and jumpy.

4. Your last point is a remarkable coincidence. I have very short fingers. My palm is normal, but overall my hands are small. I always worked at strenghening my forearms and hands. However, because of the fingers, I was never comfortable with the traditional Vardon or interlocked grips, even with the smallest of grips. I also had arthritis. My hands would shift during the swing, or I would strain the joints, particularly, if I hit a lot of balls at practice. It 's over 20 years ago, I experimented with different placements of my hands on the club, in order to find a secure and comfortable grip. I stumbled on the reverse overlap. My top hand forefinger lies over the baby finger of the bottom hand. That did the trick and ever since I have hit thousands of shots in play and practice with that grip. A few years after I took that up, Steve Jones broke his forefinger in a motorcycle crash and the only way he could play was to take the same grip, which he did with some success on the tour.
I have never seen or heard of anyone else using that grip, until you mentioned you do.

Ted

[btwilson]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Boy, I feel like I'm right on the cusp of a good swing. I'm now able to concentrate on what, to me, is the most important part of my swing, using my hips' lateral movement to start my downswing. Like I say, I'm close, but not completely there. There seems to be such a fine line between starting my downswing with my hips and starting with my arms that when I'm under pressure I revert to the arm swing which can result in almost anything (hook, slice, etc.) The swing is so counter intuitive that I can see why most of us miss the importance of not using the arms at the top of the downswing. Can anybody offer a swing thought for this spot in the swing that would make it easier to stay away from using the arms?

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Ted, The long story for me is on the reverse overlap grip is that it cured a serious bout of hooking even before I stumbled onto the Joe Dante book. I have never been comfortable with a standard overlap or interlock, using a strong ten finger grip. I played reasonably good golf playing a controlled fade with it until about 4 years ago when I hurt my back. After the back injury healed I went through a 2 year period where I started hooking the ball off the planet. Something had changed regarding my posture or move through the ball that caused this. Took many lessons from several pros and even a trip to the Haney Golf ranch to no avail, just got worse and worse with every lesson. I had almost lost hope and was going to quit, hit too many houses and lost too many balls. One day, just screwing around I hit a couple of wedges with my putting grip (reverse overlap) which compressed beautifully, straight high and long. I decided to try the other clubs in the bag...a few buckets of range balls later the rest was history. I also found out later on that Steve Jones and I think Skip Kendall have used this grip so it's not as unorthodox as I thought. I place the forefinger of my top hand in the space formed between the little finger and the next finger of the bottom hand. Technically, I think it's really pretty close to the hand position that an interlock grip would give me-just a lot easier on the hand. There are a couple of threads posted on this elsewhere on this forum.

I had lost a bit of distance but was able to convert to a neutral (slightly weak) reverse overlap grip for the full swing and play consistent controlled golf. I am a natural right hander who plays left handed (another long story) and believe that this grip works for me because it helps me keep the hands relatively passive which is what may have cured the hook.

A few months ago i stumbled onto the Dante book and incorporating this into whatever I was already doing was a snap. Literally from the first swing everything clicked. I only play aout 2-3 times a month and don't get to practice much anymore (got a promotion and 2 kids) but neverthless I shoot in a very tight range (between 85 and 93 last 10 rounds) mostly due to consistent ball striking provided by the JD method. It is such a simple, low maintenance program compared to the way the modern golf swing is taught. I know when something is off to focus on one of 3 things (wrist break, shoulder turn, weight shift/lateral hip move) and am usually able to diagnose what I did wrong. I am getting more and more comfortable with the swing as time goes on and look forward to enjoying every round I get to play now.

I was very skeptical of something called the 4 Magic Moves. During my time in golf's wilderness, I tried Natural golf, Stack n Tilt, AJ Bonar...you name it, nothing worked. The combo of JD and the reverse overlap grip is what did the trick.

Thanks for responding. It's good to know there's someone else out there. If you ever get out to California (Palm Springs area) drop me a line.

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

A couple more observations I'd like to share about 4 Magic moves/Joe Dante:

1) The results when trying to apply the teachings to a beginning golfer are not as dramatic. These moves work when a person has already acquired the basics of a decent golf swing and the hand/eye coordination required to make contact. I've been trying to help a friend who is starting out and the 4MM don't help him at all at this point. Same with trying to teach my 12 y/o daughter.
2) For whatever reason, a higher lofted driver seems to work better with JD/4MM. Perhaps the swing ends up (for me) being on a little steeper plane. I switched to a 13.5 degree (thriver) Ping G5 and am swinging this beautifully. Just as long as my 10.5 degree Cleveland launcher and considerably more accurate.
3) I have looked at hundreds of videos of pro swings old and new and find no examples of anyone at that level using JD method. Some may execute a wrist break earlier than others but nobody initiates the backswing with the wrist break first. Nobody. There may ultimately be limitations to the amount of power created by this type of swing that explain this. I would submit however, that JD/4MM however is perhaps a method that helps intermediate level golfers get better by cutting 5-10 strokes off their handicaps. stay healthier and enjoy the game more. In the whole scheme of things a far more beneficial thing for the millions of us not blessed with the physiques of Baddeley or Villegas than the way the modern conventional swing is taught.

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Boy, I feel like I'm right on the cusp of a good swing. I'm now able to concentrate on what, to me, is the most important part of my swing, using my hips' lateral movement to start my downswing. Like I say, I'm close, but not completely there. There seems to be such a fine line between starting my downswing with my hips and starting with my arms that when I'm under pressure I revert to the arm swing which can result in almost anything (hook, slice, etc.) The swing is so counter intuitive that I can see why most of us miss the importance of not using the arms at the top of the downswing. Can anybody offer a swing thought for this spot in the swing that would make it easier to stay away from using the arms?

Wilson, For me I try to keep the armpits "closed" or tight to the body for as long as possible on the swing. I'm not sure if I am describing this properly but when my arms begin getting loose (usually late in a round) that key seems to be what gets me back on track. Good luck.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

JaySpin,

Regarding the effect of that grip on the hook, when Steve Jones had no option , but to revert to that grip to save his career, he said that he had to deal with a fade. It likely made him a btter player, because he won a couple of big tournaments after that.

Because of my short fingers, I have always had a strong grip position (two - three knuckles), and the reverse overlap works well for that. I hit straight and draws. I have some difficulty hitting intentional fades (likely because of that strong grip), but I have some ideas that I'm going to work on this Spring. It's funny, because for many years, when I first started to play, all I could do was slice

Also, your comment about the seamless transition to this method, also applied to me. I read it, took my notes to the range and instant gratification. You are also correct to say that when one is already versed in sound basics, it is easier for them to slide seamlessly into trying new methods.

Ted

[DarthFader]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

A couple more observations I'd like to share about 4 Magic moves/Joe Dante:

1) The results when trying to apply the teachings to a beginning golfer are not as dramatic. These moves work when a person has already acquired the basics of a decent golf swing and the hand/eye coordination required to make contact. I've been trying to help a friend who is starting out and the 4MM don't help him at all at this point. Same with trying to teach my 12 y/o daughter.
2) For whatever reason, a higher lofted driver seems to work better with JD/4MM. Perhaps the swing ends up (for me) being on a little steeper plane. I switched to a 13.5 degree (thriver) Ping G5 and am swinging this beautifully. Just as long as my 10.5 degree Cleveland launcher and considerably more accurate.
3) I have looked at hundreds of videos of pro swings old and new and find no examples of anyone at that level using JD method. Some may execute a wrist break earlier than others but nobody initiates the backswing with the wrist break first. Nobody. There may ultimately be limitations to the amount of power created by this type of swing that explain this. I would submit however, that JD/4MM however is perhaps a method that helps intermediate level golfers get better by cutting 5-10 strokes off their handicaps. stay healthier and enjoy the game more. In the whole scheme of things a far more beneficial thing for the millions of us not blessed with the physiques of Baddeley or Villegas than the way the modern conventional swing is taught.

Jayspin, I too am enjoying using the Dante techniques with much success. I generally agree with the above statement regarding the pro-swings, but in this month's Golf Digest check out the article and swing sequence provided for Ben Curtis....really close-very early wrist break. What do you think?

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Jayspin, I too am enjoying using the Dante techniques with much success. I generally agree with the above statement regarding the pro-swings, but in this month's Golf Digest check out the article and swing sequence provided for Ben Curtis....really close-very early wrist break. What do you think?

Sorry, I let my magazine subscriptions lapse last year. It's done wonders for my game! You may be on to something though, I checked out what video there is of Curtis I could find on the internet and he appears to break his wrists very early compared to other pros. He does seem to move his arms and shoulders off the ball just a bit before performing the wrist break though from what I can see. I'll have to buy a copy of the mag at the store.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi Darthfader,

Good observation about Ben Curtis. I have taped and studied his swing since I observed he had made the change a year or two back. He has resurrected his game. He's always been an excellent putter, but his ball striking broke down. He had a good year and was in the heat of several tournaments. I was impressed with his ball striking. Am I mistaken, or did he not perform well at the Open again?

I'm also off to pick up the magagine.

Thanks,

Ted

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Jayspin, I too am enjoying using the Dante techniques with much success. I generally agree with the above statement regarding the pro-swings, but in this month's Golf Digest check out the article and swing sequence provided for Ben Curtis....really close-very early wrist break. What do you think?

Darth, I stand corrected then. Great find on the Curtis sequence. That's as close as it gets as far as I'm concerned. It is interesting to me that he is working on the early wrist break with a Leadbetter instructor. The Northern Trust is in coming to LA soon and if Ben is in the field I'll try to attend and observe his swing in person.

I experimented yesterday with making the backward wrist break primarily using the trail or bottom hand. The results were disastrous-started hooking drives and chunking irons. Shot my highest score in months.Yecchh. Back to the driving range!

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi Darth and JaySpin,

I found out the reason for the swing change for Ben Curtis going to the early wrist set. This was a sequence I saw on TV, where there was an analysis of his old and new swing. Unfortunately, it may be a one time showing, and I do not have the tape.

As you remember, Ben was very upright in the upper body with little forward lean, and had a "sit down" flex of his knees, his butt was pulled forward under his hips. Somewhat like what you see with some beginner women golfers, who then have the same swing tendency as described following for Ben in his old swing.

That setup made him take the club to the inside and flat. When I saw the clip of his old swing. and had fogotten how much his arms whipped inside and across his chest, and his wrists cocked later in the swing, his hands low and behind his shoulder.

His stance is now more bent over, and he incorporated the early wrist set, to encourage his arm swing to be more upright and get the club more above his shoulder.

I thought this was interesting. It may also provide some insight to players with the same setup and swing tendencies.

Ted

[DarthFader]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi Darth and JaySpin,

I found out the reason for the swing change for Ben Curtis going to the early wrist set. This was a sequence I saw on TV, where there was an analysis of his old and new swing. Unfortunately, it may be a one time showing, and I do not have the tape.

As you remember, Ben was very upright in the upper body with little forward lean, and had a "sit down" flex of his knees, his butt was pulled forward under his hips. Somewhat like what you see with some beginner women golfers, who then have the same swing tendency as described following for Ben in his old swing.

That setup made him take the club to the inside and flat. When I saw the clip of his old swing. and had fogotten how much his arms whipped inside and across his chest, and his wrists cocked later in the swing, his hands low and behind his shoulder.

His stance is now more bent over, and he incorporated the early wrist set, to encourage his arm swing to be more upright and get the club more above his shoulder.

I thought this was interesting. It may also provide some insight to players with the same setup and swing tendencies.

Ted

Ted-so...there's hope for all of us guys who swing like beginner women! Just kiding, I know what you were trying to say. You are spot on about the posture, that's exactly how I set up to the ball, while technically less "correct" I have found that keeping my back straighter and getting down to the ball with knee flex is a back saver-the forward lean irritates my sciatica. I'm just glad to have found a technique that accomodates this set up.

JaySpin, You make an interesting observation about the Dante method and ball position (forward) I also strike the ball best when placing the ball just forward of my left instep. I set up with a slight forward press with the irons but dispense with that with my woods and hybrids. Works like a charm and ensures I am behind the ball at all times. For some reason the ball position also promotes making the early wrist break correctly.

I screwed around and tried the reverse overlap grip after reading you and rotators posts but while I made decent contact, I am sticking to my interlock.

Id also like to see decent video of a 4MM swing or of Curtis. Lots of Faldo sequences around but to tell you the truth, I'm not seeing much Dante in his technique.

[jambalaya]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

My only problem with the method is the early wrsit break. I tried this before and when I hit some really crisp shots thought I was really on to something. For some reason it works for a while and then turns into shanks. I just don't know why. I guess I become so enamored with it that I neglect other parts of the swing or something. The early wrist break is something that has to be very conscious and the more conscious I have to be of something seems the more I screw it up eventually. Has anyone else had this problem?