Are 4 magic moves magic?

[tm3]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

interesting thread.

is the free download still active? the link took me to an ebook offered for $17.

i think there was a david leadbetter endorsed training aid a few years ago (swing setter?) that required an early wrist set.

i've briefly diddled with an early wrist set and it disrupts my tempo, which i try to keep smooth like a pendulum. maybe i was not doing it right.

does the early wrist set, done correctly, tend to make one less likely to cast or flip the club?

[BrianW]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

interesting thread.

is the free download still active? the link took me to an ebook offered for $17.

i think there was a david leadbetter endorsed training aid a few years ago (swing setter?) that required an early wrist set.

i've briefly diddled with an early wrist set and it disrupts my tempo, which i try to keep smooth like a pendulum. maybe i was not doing it right.

does the early wrist set, done correctly, tend to make one less likely to cast or flip the club?

Here is a link to it:

http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing01.php

[kbp]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Tm3- The early wrist break may have several advantages and may also several disadvantages. It depends on what you are doing now and what kind of problems you have. It might help your casting. See my post earlier in this thread for my reasoning.

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/g...l#post10560367

One potential disadvantage is that since the early break moves the club head closer to your core much sooner than a traditional break, the apparent weight of the club decreases earlier in the backswing. The stabilizing effect of the weight of the clubhead extended from your body is removed earlier. Some people may find this disrupts their rhythm and/or their extension and/or their coil, depending again on their swing tendencies and goals.

[bruin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

i checked my wrist posistion at the top of the backswing using both the early wrist break and my conventional one, and they were both the same. so the only bit of the 4mm's i dont adhere to is this early w/break. i check regularly during practice sessions to make sure everything is correct and then go back to a 'normal' wrist break.just feels better in the overall swing.

[tm3]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

The early wrist break may have several advantages and may also several disadvantages. It depends on what you are doing now and what kind of problems you have......... depending again on their swing tendencies and goals.

ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding !!!!!!!

self diagnosis is a challenge. but it is also a challenge finding an instructor that can tell what is going on. at least self diagnosis is less expensive!

trial and error, finding something that works, is one indirect way of self diagnosis.

i experimented with early wrist break at the range today with my 8 iron. i think the negative for me is it increases my grip pressure. when i really hit one well it felt as though my hands and wrists were really limp, which i interpret as allowing more lag. the early wrist set also seems to decrease my forearm rotation, which i feel on my better shots and especially when i hit a draw.

of course what i think i'm feeling may not be what i'm actually doing at all.

thanks for the comments, and also thanks for posting the link to the download.

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hey Ted, Here's another one for your collection of early wrist break videos.

I don't know who this is, but the swing is eerily close to what mine looks like, arms very close to the body, forward ball position, extremely early wrist break and a bit of a hitch on the backswing LOL.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi JaySpin,

Thanks, I enjoyed watching it and replaying it to dissect the swing.

I see the early wrist break all right. Here's my critique of the swing versus 4MM, which I realize he is not a proponent of, other than the early break.

First of all the early break is not 4MM, as he merely breaks it horizontally, and not creating the square clubface position (face angled slightly to the ground) and the upcock of the left wrist created by the downward pressure of left thumbpad on the right thumb.

He really does not take the club back and up with the shoulders generating the takeaway. It's all by using his hands (for the early horizontal break and whipping the club inside) and his arms (for the lifting up). That's why he crosses over the line, it's because his arms are lifting and outracing his body/shoulder turn.

(I believe if the backswing is generated by the turn of the shoulders after making the proper early break, the proper plane will happen on its own, not too flat and not too upright. It also prevents me from lifting the arms up in an attempt to maximize my backswing. As far back as the limit of my shoulder turn can go, is also as far up and around as my arms will go.)

I also don't see the lateral shift of the hips, to generate the downswing, so he has not shifted his weight forward. He seems to be stuck on his back leg and when he strikes the ball he falls back. I think that's why he has to come up on the shot, his legs and spine straighten (put your cursor at the top of his head and see how much his head level changes from the start to impact to finish of his swing).

I looks like he can play OK with this swing, though it takes a lot of manipulation to keep it consistent.

As for the guy to his right, I think the swing is hopeless.

Sorry, I just had to do this critique, as I am presently fine tuning my own 4MM swing at this early point in my golf season in the Tundra, and it's a reminder for me.

Ted

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Ted, you are dead on, I was about to note that instead of the lateral weight shift there is a bit of reverse weight shift. Also, you are correct on the wrist break. Ultimately however, contact appeared to be solid and the ball appeared to fly straight.

I do wish Andy Brown or somebody would post a video of what a 4mm swing would look like. Getting the technique right is such a guessing game for me.

[Shankless]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

and the upcock of the left wrist created by the downward pressure of left thumbpad on the right thumb.

Ted

I think you meant downward pressure of right thumbpad on left thumb.

Les

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Ted

I think you meant downward pressure of right thumbpad on left thumb.

Les

You are right, Shankless.

Now for the disclosure, which may be of surprise.

I'm a closet left hander, who while posting on this forum has to convert in my mind what the right handed process would be. Sometimes, it gets very confusing for me and I can't tell you how often I have to rehearse some of the intricate moves, before I can compose a post. I rehearsed this move a few times, but when it came down to the nub, my natural instincts prevailed.

Regardless, SpinJay and others, there are a few things that have come to mind re the 4MM swing that may be of interest to those who are trying it. I went to the range today, after I posted the previous message, for the first time this year. I am coming out of the Winter hiatus, and needed the fine tuning. I played yesterday, and although the shots were going straight or with a draw, I did not feel the ball was being struck solidly. and the flights were low. I had to find out why.

I specifically checked the upcocking, and found that I had lost some strength in the hands and the incentive to really crank the left wrist to upcock in the early break. That upcock is effectively the full cocking of the wrist. Without the pre-cocking, you will not have the cock of the wrist, so it is essential. So I worked on that until my hands got tired.

The hip shift to start the downswing is very important, but I did not have any problems with that.

The next point, I'm not sure why it works, and I don't recall the 4MM teachings specifically says anything about this. I recalled I was doing this last year, when i was hitting the ball so well. I was hitting all shots, including a 10 degree driver, with a nice trajectory and solid. So the first few swings were like yesterday, too low and no punch, some small pushes.
I was kinda pissed off, thinking how can I lose it, what sustained the 4MM for me previously and now it's gone. Then, I remembered something. I had initially found that to make the swing work was to move closer to the ball, so my arms were more hanging, and my hands were closer to my thighs. I did that and it was magic again. The following strikes were solid and the flights higher and longer. For some reason, this simple adjustment changes or corrects the swing plane, or changes the kinetics of the swing. The whole swing feels different. The backswing seems less contrived (i.e. it seems with the arms reaching out, the backswing was too flat and the hands ended up way behind the back. With this flat backswing, the position of the arms and the break of the wrists did not seem natural, and I was fighting it.) It seems the lag in the downswing and impact was more efficient (perhaps the hands were in a better position?). Perhaps the swing plane became more upright and tighter, whereas with the flatter swing my arms were disconnecting from my body, and I was not efficient? This could be it, as I was rotating my shoulders and body on the downswing, arms seemed glued to my body and I could feel the additional power.

One other thing I've been playing about with, and it has been a good thing. On the downswing and through swing, I try to keep my left shoulder down. It probably does not stay down, as it would have to go up as the back shoulder goes down, but I think most players have a tendency to have their left shoulder pop up, leading to thin strikes and open faces. Thinking of keeping the shoulder down, levels the path of the clubhead. I also felt the connection of the forces from my spikes, legs, lower body and torso being transmitted in an uninterrupted forward motion to the ball via the level shoulder. I believe this would be a great cure for slices also, as it would keep you down and not have you opening the clubface.

I'd like to get some comments on my ideas, why they work and if there are other suggestions.

Gotta go,

Ted

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Ted,

Keeping the arms close to the body is one of my personal fundamentals. I think that doing so keeps me connected and restricts the swing plane from getting too far to the inside on the backswing. For a good swing image I think of what Furyk (yes!) looks like at address.

When you are talking about keeping the left shoulder down, are you being a right or left hander?

I too hit a little slump about a month ago, started hitting these weak pushes and fades despite applying 4mm basics. Came off it by working on making a fuller deeper shoulder turn/backswing pointing the club headjust to the left of the target at the top of the backswing. I was shortening the swing too much and throwing myself out of synch. Made the adjustment and I've been killing the ball for the last couple of rounds.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi JaySpin,

I'm referring to trying to feel keeping the left shoulder down. I will continue to convert my thoughts to that of a righthander. As I said, you can't keep the shoulder down, because the right shoulder will want to counteract that by dropping. However, you can make the shoulder level out somewhat, and it gives a delicious sensation of all your power driving through the shot to the target for a longer time. The face stays square, whereas popping the shoulder up may leave the face open, causing weak fades and slices. It also keeps you from making an "uppercut" glancing thin strike, which may be cause of weak low shots.

It's amazing, I was actually going to edit my previous post to also address the deeper shoulder turn, but because I was busy, I was going to address it this morning. I had found that I was short of making the turn by several degrees of rotation. So, I also really worked on this, stretching myself out, again until my body ached. After a while, my flexibility will return to do this without aches again. I used the swing thought I learn from Anthony Kim. He learned and still plays strictly by feeling, really the antithesis of Tiger. What he does, is just have the image of getting his left shoulder getting back even with his right foot. That's what I do, and with the spine backward tilted at address, there is no sway, you end up with the head and coiled upper body behind the ball. You are absolutely right, POW, the power and accuracy improves. The guys at the range could not believe I am pushing 70.

It's good to compare ideas. Let me know if keeping the shoulder down does anything for you.

Ted

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi JaySpin,

One more comment about the shoulder turn. I think it is particularly something that affects the 4MM. With the early wrist break, you are counting on the shoulder turn to take you back on the proper swing plane. Without the deeper rounded shoulder turn, the shoulders may seem to turn, but in an upright tilt. You can see what this does to the plane, when you check where the butt is pointing. If you do not make the deeper rounded shoulder turn, the butt will point inside the ball/target line. Simple as that.

Ted

[BrianW]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Ted,

I think the feel of keeping the lead shoulder down assists in dropping the arms into the slot at the start of the downswing. It counters casting, coming over the top and gets you nicely on an inside path.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi Brian,

I agree re the dropping of the arms into the slot, and of course once you're there, you can't cast.

I also think it gives a better angle of attack on the ball, whereas when your front shoulder pops up, it produces an "uppercut" swing (a "U" shaped attack), which could result in a fat or thin strike, depending on the ball position. I think your hitting zone is extended through and past the ball by keeping the shoulder down. It also keeps the arm from disconnecting from the body at the armpit. The feeling of connection is tremendous.

Ted