Are 4 magic moves magic?

[amsie]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi all,

I just found the 4MM site yesterday, and thought id let you know where I stand so far on it.

To begin with, im 36, and started playing last year. Im reasonably fit, and with every sport i've ever taken up, i've managed to get to a decent standard fairly quickly, except golf!

The 2 problems I have is accurate distance, and hooking! Comming back into golf this year after the winter break, i've discovered that the club face is closing before impact, and i've tried everything, different swings, diffeent planes, pull with left arm, shake hands, etc, read countless pages on the net, taken lessons, changed my grip until my hands ache, expensive new fitted clubs, and still can't get over the club face closing down before impact.

Having read the 4MM, i tried it out today, and it was pretty good. Not every shot was perfect, mainly due to a back ache, but when I connected on the sweet spot, they went straight. No extra distance, but I was only doing half swings. In fact, even when I didnt connect on the sweet spot, they mostly went straight with about 3 slices on 100 balls.

The most uncomfatable part was the wrist break, but the lateral movement and keeping my head back was easy to master.

Now, to my mind anyway, the benefits of the wrist break seem to be that it holds the club face squarer comming down, and the left arm holds straighter on the backswing, without the club dropping at the top of the backswing.

I noticed my instructor at the range today looking at me a bit strange, probably because he has taught me not to hinge early, and definately not to use a lateral move left, but then he hasnt managed to cure my hook in 3 lessons this year, and the 4mm seemed to on the first test.

Andy Brown says on his video that you have to be uncomfatable to play good golf, im not so sure about that, and im going to try the same concept tomorrow but without the wrist break, to see how that goes, or maybe you get used to the wrist break after a while, like anything golf related.

This could be the thing that changes the game from something I was considering giving up to being a half decent weekend warrior and actually enjoying the game.

Regards

Paul

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi Paul,

I think the more you get used to it, particularly with your background as you described it, you may find 4MM a more consistent way to swing the club. There are traps, which you will have to think through. These "traps" will wreck the swing, and have you wondering what's going on, but you have to follow the basics. It's like working on the computer and you leave out one step, and the computer says "error", and you say "no way error". The computer does not lie., so you have find the step you missed. One "trap", for instance, is thinking you just lift the arms to the top. You have to use your shoulders and turn, as the instructions say. If you read this whole thread and also the other one on this subject, you will see other people's experiences with these nuances. Also, I don't think anyone has a pure 4MM. There are variations people put in to suit their particular needs.

Ted

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi JaySpin,

One more comment about the shoulder turn. I think it is particularly something that affects the 4MM. With the early wrist break, you are counting on the shoulder turn to take you back on the proper swing plane. Without the deeper rounded shoulder turn, the shoulders may seem to turn, but in an upright tilt. You can see what this does to the plane, when you check where the butt is pointing. If you do not make the deeper rounded shoulder turn, the butt will point inside the ball/target line. Simple as that.

Ted

Thanks Ted,
Where should the butt point? At the target line then? This is not something I even think about.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi JaySpin,

Here's a video I posted at another thread.

http://www.videojug.com/film/proper-swing-plane

The butt end should more or less trace the ball/target line to be on plane. You will notice that if you make the early break and lift your arms, the butt points well inside the ball/target line, but if you turn your shoulders at this point, you will see that the butt traces the extended line as you turn, until the club reaches horizontal.

This answers why you have to make a fuller turn.

Ted

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Thanks Ted,
Crystal clear now after your last post. I will focus on trying to keep the front shoulder level for a few practice sessions and report back.

[amsie]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi Rotator, thanks for the input, do you use the 4MM?

Just to update on todays progress, yesterday, I was very tight, so today, I done some yoga & stretches before I went to the range.

I only hit 50 balls, and I would say 45 were straight. A couple of mis-hits to begin with, and 2 slices on the 5 iron.

Out of the straight balls, 50% were sweet, and 50% were "toed".

Also, the discomfort of the wrist break had gone, probably due to the stretches and practicing the wrist break, which made for a better feeling.

No additional distance, but I realised half way through that instead of trying to get 150+ from my 5 iron, to concentrate on executing the swing correctly rather than worrying about distance, and for the 9 & 7 irons, this definately helped the distance.

Again, these were all done on half swings, as I have always struggled to get to the top of the backswing and hit a ball correctly, obviously something I need to work on & practice.

I know that I have a tendancy to try & hit the ball to gain distance, rather than allowing the swing & club to do the work, and again its something I really need to work & concentrate on. I think tis is probably due to my past sports, boxing, kick boxing, football (soccer) and weight training.

I think my next step is to go ahead and purchase the 4MM, but I want to e-mail Andy Brown and see if there are vids of the rest of the moves.

Also, I better point out that im no way affiliated with them (i've been accused of being Mike Pederson on another forum because I stuck up for the guy), im just a struggling hitter from Essex, UK.

If anyones interested, i'll be happy to post my results, good or bad.

Incedentially, Im also of the opinion that what works for one might not work for another

Cheers

Paul

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi Amsie,

If you read the full threads (this, and the other which you will find on "Search"), you will see I and several others do use 4MM. We often compare notes, which may be a help, because Andy Brown's lessons may not delve into some of these tidbits. I've received private messages from others who have found great success from using this method.

The discomfort is only because it is a different way of working the hands and it also affects the arms (as it brings the elbows uncomfortably together and keeps them there). However, the discomfort is because you are now doing things, which you've probably never did consistently before. One of the things is that it forces you to make a full wrist cock, which you probably never did before consistently, because there were so many other things you were thinking about, or you had anxiety which kept you from completing your backswing with a full cock. The elbows being closer together cannot altogether be a bad thing, if you remember the drills of the past and Ben Hogan tying a kerchief to keep them together. The method helps to retain the lag coming into impact, whereas anxiety may have previously had you release early with the conventional swing.

JaySpin has mentioned and I tend to agree with him that it may be that a sound knowledge of the fundamentals of the golf swing may be in order in seamlessly slipping into this method. You can't just pick up this method as the magic bullet, you have to know that you can't reverse pivot, disconnect the arms from the body, etc etc. Any of these things could totally mess the swing up worse than before, and you may go away thinking this method is a lot of bunk.

Ted

[Shankless]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Have you studied 4MM through Andy brown's website, or from Dante's original book? I picked up the the original book, actually a 1995 reprint. If not mistaken Mr. Dante passed away before Andy Brown was born. The 13 minute video he has on Youtube is word for word out of the original book.

I found it kind of misleading that his book is listed as written by Joe Dante and Andy Brown. Amazon, Overstock Borders and Barnes and Noble all have the Joe Dante book for less than the 15.00 retail price.

If Mr. Brown has some remuneration agreement with the Dante estate I apologize. If not it seems he is misrepresenting himself as developing something that existed in the 1960's (original date of plublication).

Sorry for the rant, but the book has helped me and I feel credit should be given where earned.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

This disclaimer in Andy Brown's book may answer your question, and make you even more p**sed.

I can't cut and paste from the E-book, so I'll give you a synopsis.

"....not prepared, approved, licensed or endorsed by the Joseph Dante Estate, or any entity...."

"....without permission and are not authourized by, associated with, endorsed by the Joseph Dante Estate.........".

You can imagine how I feel about this. 'nuff said.

Ted

[DarthFader]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Just logged on after a long vacation down under and it's good to see so much recent activity on this thread. Lots for me to try out in my quest to perfect my swing using the Joe Dante method.

I liked what the Rotator had to say about having to find variations to add to the JDM/4MM basics to make the swing work best for us as individuals. Here's something I chanced upon that I wanted to share just in case it works for you:

While playing a recent round my drive drifted off the fairway and I had an awkward sidehill lie with the ball below my feet. I had to address the ball with the toe down and the heel of the club slightly up. Made a swing intending to just lay up and hit the purest 6 iron I had ever hit 25 yards further than normal.

On the next hole, I decided to experiment and addressed the ball again with my driver just slightly "heeled up" and hit the ball beautifully. This continued for the rest of the round where I shot my best ever 82 at this course and the large bucket of balls I had to hit afterwards in my excitement.

I think addressing the ball this way establishes a different wrist position at address that makes for a very different feeling (tighter?) early wrist break that has less possibility of "upcocking" or forearm roll than when I set up the way I used to with the sole of the club completely flat on the ground. I end up setting up taller and more upright, with my hands held up a bit higher, with less knee flex than before.

I already have irons custom fitted for lie angle-I don't think that's it as I also do the same thing with my woods and hybrid.

Am I making sense? I can't wait to play again.

[amsie]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi all,

Day 3 of using the 4mm, and im sorry to say very dissapointing today.

Went up the range, and the hook seems to have crept back into my swing

Anything lower than a 7 was a complete dissapointment, and felt "toed".

I feel totally demoralised right now, honestly, the effort i've put into this game, and the results are still poor. If I had put this effort into any other sport, I would be at a very good level.

The worse thing is, I can't pin point the fault either.

Practicing on my nets in the garden, the swing felt fine, and I seemed to be hitting the sweet spot, but obviously you can't tell the ball's flight in the nets.

I just can't get my head around the fact that im in a decent physical shape, and I still struggle to hit the ball straight, & past 150 yards!!!!! (200 yards to the left, no problem!!).

Grrrr, rant over, will try again tomorrow, or perhaps I should give the range a couple of days off?

Cheers

Paul

Edit: Reading back on your comments rotator, I may be reverse pivoting. I had noticed this when using the bump method to start the backswing, that is, moving left, then trying to move to the right whilst getting the wrist break in early. I will check on that asap.

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Amsie, I totally sympathize, some time ago I almost quit golf in frustration due to an extended bout of hooking the ball off the planet. Took me over a year and a complete swing overhaul to get my swing back.The answer to your hooking problem lies mostly outside 4MM I'm afraid.

Chances are you have a strong grip that feels very natural and comfortable to you. Work on hitting balls with a neutral or even weak grip held in the fingers, not the palm. Lots of posts on this site and elsewhere on how to grip a club. For me, I take an extremely weak lead hand grip now, no knuckles showing-hand almost completely under the club-not sure if I could recommend that extreme a grip to others, but it's what worked for me. I predominantly hit a fade or straight ball now, can't draw to save my life, but I can live with that for now.

Also, try to avoid whipping the club to the inside on your takeaway which was also causing the hook for me. Using the early wrist break 4MM method may help with that.

Yes, the net may be a bad thing as you could be grooving a bad move. It was for me.

Good luck.

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Just logged on after a long vacation down under and it's good to see so much recent activity on this thread. Lots for me to try out in my quest to perfect my swing using the Joe Dante method.

I liked what the Rotator had to say about having to find variations to add to the JDM/4MM basics to make the swing work best for us as individuals. Here's something I chanced upon that I wanted to share just in case it works for you:

While playing a recent round my drive drifted off the fairway and I had an awkward sidehill lie with the ball below my feet. I had to address the ball with the toe down and the heel of the club slightly up. Made a swing intending to just lay up and hit the purest 6 iron I had ever hit 25 yards further than normal.

On the next hole, I decided to experiment and addressed the ball again with my driver just slightly "heeled up" and hit the ball beautifully. This continued for the rest of the round where I shot my best ever 82 at this course and the large bucket of balls I had to hit afterwards in my excitement.

I think addressing the ball this way establishes a different wrist position at address that makes for a very different feeling (tighter?) early wrist break that has less possibility of "upcocking" or forearm roll than when I set up the way I used to with the sole of the club completely flat on the ground. I end up setting up taller and more upright, with my hands held up a bit higher, with less knee flex than before.

I already have irons custom fitted for lie angle-I don't think that's it as I also do the same thing with my woods and hybrid.

Am I making sense? I can't wait to play again.

DF, I think I see what you mean, hit a little bucket of balls this morning quite well, setting up like you describe. I did hit a few more pulls than I normally do though, but I have a very forward ball position. This bears investigation.

[Shankless]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Amsie:

You might be fighting the same thing I am. You need to consciously keep the hands passive. Trust that the body movements will square the clubface. I went back to the section on MM #1 and do the early wrist break and turn the shoulders back and through. Good luck and keep us posted.

[amsie]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Thanks Jayspin & Shankless.

I've been thinking about this problem a lot over the last few weeks, and thought the 4MM had solved it. After reading Jayspins reply earlier regarding the weak grip, I had already tried this and many others, but it got me thinking, why is it that when I take away, the club has turned inwards immediately, i mean, literally 2 inches away from the ball on the backswing.

With the 4mm in my mind, I tried a pure shoulder takeaway, and hey presto, it seemed to solve the problem.

I hit a few in the garden, and then raced to the range, full of optimism (as usual). Started to hit a few, using a pure shoulder takeaway, no wrist break, but the other 3MM's, really focusing on the lateral left movement and keeping my head back, and I have never hit them better :-)

The better I hit them, the more confident I got and shot after shot was better & longer :-) Not had this feeling for over a year.

Im not sure if this is the answer i've been searching for, but I will be trying it again tomorrow.

Cheers

Paul

Incedentially, why is it that all the pros & most web pages seem to say that you shouldent slide to the left? Cheers Paul