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How-To "Backspin on chips"

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  • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

    "as you can contact the ball lower" ...

    What benefit will that do? If anything, it will make the travel up the clubface SHORTER, inducing LESS spin.

    What physics principle are you imagining will bring more spin to the ball by hitting it lower?

    Comment


    • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

      Originally posted by Mox View Post
      "as you can contact the ball lower" ...

      What benefit will that do? If anything, it will make the travel up the clubface SHORTER, inducing LESS spin.

      What physics principle are you imagining will bring more spin to the ball by hitting it lower?
      Hi Mox, you are back.

      Let me explain again. when hitting out of a fairway bunker you need to pick the ball cleanly off the sand, no real divot, use just enough loft to get over the lip, this will catch it slightly thin where the leading edge of the club hits near or just below the balls equator sending it off low due to the lesser spin created. When the ball is hit normal in the fairway the clubface contacts it LOWER, below the equator and this generates more spin, we know this because the ball can then slide and roll UP the face. That's the physics principle, easy when you know how
      Last edited by BrianW; 07-09-2008, 04:37 PM.

      Comment


      • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

        hi
        the reason you try and take a ball clean out a fairway bunker is you don't want sand between the face of the club and the ball as you get when playing out a greenside bunker.
        the more sand between the ball and the face then less spin is applied to the ball. picking the ball up just before the club touches the sand or off the fairway is the best way to make clean contact and get a controllable amount of back spin. as for what physics principle you would apply to hitting the ball lower to put more back spin on it? then i don't think you have seen the top pros playing snooker where the hit the ball lower to make the ball spin back and hit the ball above the equator to make the ball spin forward and roll one more than it would normally. but i take it you think the ball in snooker also gets compressed with the felt of the cloth on both top spin and back spin shots.
        i don't think were ever going to agree on this.
        cheers
        bill

        Comment


        • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

          Originally posted by bill reed View Post
          then i don't think you have seen the top pros playing snooker where the hit the ball lower to make the ball spin back and hit the ball above the equator to make the ball spin forward and roll one more than it would normally.
          You can also spin a snooker ball back by hitting down on it, and if you want to hit down on it you have to hit it on or above the equator...
          So its not just where you make contact, its the angle of attack and the vector of your force applied that governs the spin.

          Comment


          • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

            hi greeBomen
            in snooker your hitting the ball with a domed tip thats almost flat and you have all the ball to work with, above and below the equator.
            in golf you only have the lower half of the ball due to the club having loft.
            imagine playing snooker with a wedged shape tip.
            my main point was that the top pro snooker played use the lower half of the ball a lot more than the middle so the can control the backspin and also the amount of side spin by hitting the ball more to the side and can get both back and side spin on a ball.
            the hitting above the middle gives the ball over spin and lets you run the ball on more than it would normally and you can add side spin to this too.
            the mashy shot where you come into the snooker ball from almost on top does hit the ball into the table but your hitting well above the middle of the ball and you cant do that when playing golf as the club are designed to always hit below the equator to get the ball in the air.
            cheers
            bill

            Comment


            • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

              Originally posted by GreeBoman View Post
              You can also spin a snooker ball back by hitting down on it, and if you want to hit down on it you have to hit it on or above the equator...
              So its not just where you make contact, its the angle of attack and the vector of your force applied that governs the spin.
              Indeed ... and as this video shows, even when the cue is near level, the force vector is still forward and DOWN.

              Notice how the tip deflects down after contacting the cue ball in the first shot.



              Also notice how the ball in the second shot hits the ball below center in a downward and forward direction, and - despite a pool cue having no "loft" - kicks the ball into the air.

              The cue tip compresses the ball against the table and the reacting force kicks the cue ball up.

              Comment


              • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

                I'm not sure that this thread is convincing or dissuading any of the proponents one way or the other so could we move on to something that has puzzled me for years?

                Just how many angels CAN dance on a pin head?

                I don't want to be rude, or facetious or diss anyone but surely if you are getting the result you require then it doesn't much matter whether the ball compresses against the earth or whether you just think it does, or, not, or, indeed, neither

                I could make much the same comment about arm / body / mixed (ardy?) swings; if you are making decent sweet spot contact and the balls going where you want who gives a tinkers how?

                Now , where is that flame proof jacket?

                Comment


                • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

                  Well, I suppose we debate the issue because we feel it's important.

                  Those who don't are in no way forced to read it (or participate).

                  Personally, I think that a basic understanding of the physical principles behind the game makes it easier to learn to play the game itself. And understanding how forces affect the ball, makes it a lot easier to understand why things go wrong and what you need to do to correct it.

                  That - in my humble opinion - makes threads like this very valid.

                  Comment


                  • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

                    well said Mox

                    Comment


                    • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

                      Originally posted by Mox View Post
                      Well, I suppose we debate the issue because we feel it's important.

                      Those who don't are in no way forced to read it (or participate).

                      Personally, I think that a basic understanding of the physical principles behind the game makes it easier to learn to play the game itself. And understanding how forces affect the ball, makes it a lot easier to understand why things go wrong and what you need to do to correct it.

                      That - in my humble opinion - makes threads like this very valid.
                      I totally agree with you Mox about debating things we feel are important but imho this thread started as a debate and has descended into a playground squabble and name calling.

                      But I'm happy to take your advice and stop reading it

                      Comment


                      • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

                        Originally posted by bdbl View Post
                        I totally agree with you Mox about debating things we feel are important but imho this thread started as a debate and has descended into a playground squabble and name calling.

                        But I'm happy to take your advice and stop reading it
                        It's been a long rather technical debate but if we think to debate the subject is important to us then I guess that's OK. I don't believe there has been any serious name calling here, a little irritation that others do not agree with ones reasoning but nothing more than that. It's a shame that you consider it immature Robin but at least it is not an offensive subject. Compulsive to some but never compulsory to others
                        Last edited by BrianW; 07-14-2008, 10:10 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

                          Originally posted by BrianW View Post
                          It's been a long rather technical debate but if we think to debate the subject is important to us then I guess that's OK.

                          It's a shame that you consider it immature Robin but at least it is not an offensive subject.
                          OK, OK I apologise if any one thinks I was calling them immature and. However my original point merely echoed Mox about 80 posts ago when he said...

                          Originally posted by Mox View Post
                          Like I said - further debate would likely be pointless, but still ...
                          and whilst to a degree at least I'd agree that

                          Originally posted by Mox View Post
                          a basic understanding of the physical principles behind the game makes it easier to learn to play the game itself.
                          I was just pointing out that the two sides of the argument both felt that their differing understandings of the physics helped them play the game better and neither side was being convinced by the other.

                          As for playground debate, well there's no denying that a lot of the thrust and counter thrust has been amusing and certainly little if any offensive but do yuo remember...



                          That said guys, the comtributors to this thread are amongst the ones I most respect on this forum so having made a small effort to defend my original stance I shall withdraw gracefully from this particular fray and leave you to it with I hope no hard feelings from any of us

                          Comment


                          • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

                            Originally posted by bdbl View Post
                            OK,
                            That said guys, the comtributors to this thread are amongst the ones I most respect on this forum so having made a small effort to defend my original stance I shall withdraw gracefully from this particular fray and leave you to it with I hope no hard feelings from any of us
                            None at all mate. I think we know the difference between a heated debate and one that has transpired into personal attacks. Actually that cartoon by MOX was pointed to himself which was quite funny.

                            I do agree this subject has had a good airing and does not need any more air time (Well not until someone else says the ball is trapped between the clubface and ground )

                            Mox my friend, thanks for the cut and thrust of it.

                            Comment


                            • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

                              Originally posted by bill reed View Post
                              hi greeBomen
                              in snooker your hitting the ball with a domed tip thats almost flat and you have all the ball to work with, above and below the equator.
                              in golf you only have the lower half of the ball due to the club having loft.
                              imagine playing snooker with a wedged shape tip.
                              my main point was that the top pro snooker played use the lower half of the ball a lot more than the middle so the can control the backspin and also the amount of side spin by hitting the ball more to the side and can get both back and side spin on a ball.
                              the hitting above the middle gives the ball over spin and lets you run the ball on more than it would normally and you can add side spin to this too.
                              the mashy shot where you come into the snooker ball from almost on top does hit the ball into the table but your hitting well above the middle of the ball and you cant do that when playing golf as the club are designed to always hit below the equator to get the ball in the air.
                              cheers
                              bill
                              Hey Bill,
                              the point I was going for is that the angle of attack is more important than where you contact the ball, also I would argue that we have as much of the ball available to us in golf as a snooker player does, we just dont get much benefit from hitting the ball above the equator...

                              In my mind the parallel is hitting down on a snooker ball and contacting it at or just below the equator, this (coupled with the bernoulli effect) is what gets the ball airborne.

                              Also I think its a slight misnomer to talk about the equator of the golf ball, as its not really important. The POC between ball and club is on the tangent the clubface makes with the ball. This can be seen as a perpendicular line from the clubface through the centre of the ball.

                              The less loft the club has the lower the launch angle (in the direction of the force N)

                              Finally ("whew!" I hear you say) I would like to say this. What we feel and think we are doing in golf usually bares little resemblance to what we are actually doing. If thinking of hitting the ball down into the ground helps you to hit the ball with a downward moving clubface then continue to think that. Likewise if thinking about the ball sliding up the clubface helps you to hit down on it, keep doing that too!

                              Comment


                              • Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

                                hi GreeBoman
                                i bow to your knowledge on snooker and hitting a snooker ball as i have only played it a few times.
                                i think the picture you sent in says more than words can tell and shows how the equator is level to the ground and only really a reference point and nothing else but when in contact with the ball if you take a line through the ball like in your picture it gives you the launch angle and you have a different equator with respect to the club face rather than the ground..
                                it was what i was trying to say about a nail through the club-face to show the angle the ball would leave the face and as you rightly said the lower the loft the lower the ball leaves the face.
                                i also think your right in what ever you think about the ball compressing with the earth or the club-face, both ways of thinking can help in the way you swing into the ball and get cleaner contact.
                                you make some good points.
                                cheers
                                bill

                                Comment

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