One Plane vs Two Plane swing

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Even an intersting point on how every bad shot is not nessisarily due to bad tecnique, as I am very technique oriented, but I see what you are getting at.

Obviosuly every bad shot has a technical reason - clubface closed down etc, divot pointed too far right etc. This is then usually (often unnecessarily in my opinion) traced back further but it stops at technique.

Sometimes you have to ask what went on before the technique. If you have a bad routine and dont make the correct decision or dont commit or pick a wrong club then this is the cause. Maybe the cause is even before that, maybe you had a poor meal before or not enough sleep affecting your timing etc.

i watch great players play day in day out, and as good as their swings are, their course management is so poor.

• poor players play to hit their best shots
• the best players play to hit their average shot

imagine a guy who draw the ball (kenny perry if you will). if he were playing a hole with pin cut tight left and aimed at the pin, 33% of the time he will hit a good shot 66% he will miss left.

take the same player and make him hit at the right side of the green(away from the pin), now 66% of the time he will hit a decent shot and 33% he will hit a good shot. its more complicated than this but this is the basis for good course management

[lgskywalker37]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Obviosuly every bad shot has a technical reason - clubface closed down etc, divot pointed too far right etc. This is then usually (often unnecessarily in my opinion) traced back further but it stops at technique.

Sometimes you have to ask what went on before the technique. If you have a bad routine and dont make the correct decision or dont commit or pick a wrong club then this is the cause. Maybe the cause is even before that, maybe you had a poor meal before or not enough sleep affecting your timing etc.

i watch great players play day in day out, and as good as their swings are, their course management is so poor.

• poor players play to hit their best shots
• the best players play to hit their average shot

imagine a guy who draw the ball (kenny perry if you will). if he were playing a hole with pin cut tight left and aimed at the pin, 33% of the time he will hit a good shot 66% he will miss left.

take the same player and make him hit at the right side of the green(away from the pin), now 66% of the time he will hit a decent shot and 33% he will hit a good shot. its more complicated than this but this is the basis for good course management

yes, I agree that course managment is very important. I also like your "had a poor meal" thought lol. As we are human and even the best technique in the world will have different results at least 10% of the time on a good day. So not everything can be traced back to technique IMO.

But a bad techniqe will have you tracing back to a lot more things and branching off where as a sound technique can only lead you to less that can go wrong like a tight left ricep that day or a bad meal as you said ect.

I also don't think it has anything to do with timing and IMO timing isn't an issue in the golf swing.

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

I also don't think it has anything to do with timing and IMO timing isn't an issue in the golf swing.

So if someones tempo gets faster in a game or their body rotation gets slower/faster than their arms you dont think it will be an issue?

[LowPost42]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

lgsky - I gotta go with Brian on this one. Timing is a crucial element in the golf swing, as is hand-eye coordination.

Alison Thietje (it may be Crawford by now) has the most perfect looking golf swing in the world from a biomechanical point of view - but doesn't have the hand-eye to score well (this is by her own confession).

Don't kid yourself - timing and good hands are essential to the swing. The better your hands the better your shots and saves on bad swings.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

I will comment on the timing for now...

I still don't believe there is any timing involved, in my swing anyway. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know why you would put timing in your swing, it is happening at 100 some mph, why would you want to put a timing element in there?

I do think it is sequencial and I can see what people call timing but is more a technique. Something simple as running could be said that timing is involved. If you plant your left foot and push off and don't bring your right foot up in enough time, you will hit your face on the ground.... but is that really timing? I don't consider it so, it s technique, you know that when your left side pushes your right side needs to move up. Does a basketball player release the ball when .3 seconds pass from the time they started shooting? No, they release when it feels right. A golfer knows there hand needs to be just like it was at adress to hit it straight, so their brain tells it to be at this rotational axis facing this direction when it hits this point in space.

That is not timing IMO, that is what is know as proprioceptive sensory sytem. You have 3 sensory systems, visual which makes up 80% of your sensors, your vistibular, which is your otolith organs and semi-circular canals (inner ear) and your proprioceptive. It is not very well know how this works, it just does, its quite mysterious. When you close your eyes and are told to touch your nose, you can get within 3mm of your the tip of your nose (when sober). You didn't time that you need to move your hand up for .2 seconds and left for .1 ect. You just do it, just like in golf, you just get there. Now people can make it harder to get there when they block their natural boimechanical functions and adding tension. The reason they add tension is in an attempt to speed up the club, so there is some logic to it, but I don't think it throws your timing off, merely your body's 'flow'.


I never heard of Alison Thietje in my life. I am watching some youtube videos on her. Some things she says are dead on, and others are so close minded and "x-factor" science it kills me. But I will watch a few more videos before coming to a consenses. But so far I can prove a ton of things wrong as she is can't seem to see the forest through the trees.

Alison Thietje (it may be Crawford by now) has the most perfect looking golf swing in the world from a biomechanical point of view - but doesn't have the hand-eye to score well (this is by her own confession).

That is quite a statement there, I don't want to bash it yet... Do you have any video's of her? What is her swing speed? How consistant is she? If she has ever had a swing speed of 165mph and will she be able to drive it 300yds at the age of 70, I would even give her 130mph and 300yds now and 250 at age 70 since she is a small framed women. If not, then that statement is clearly false. Those are just simple test to weed out the non-sense, if you met or were close to that criteria, then we could hook you up to an electromiogram and then we could see how much energy you exerted and how much club head speed came from it, but that is so unnessisary since she doens't even come close to that. If she really said that about herself, she truly is ignorant.

I watched some youtube seminars and I see what she is about now. She is extremly simplistic, and is correct in what she teaches, which is a traditional swing, and I have no problem with that.

What I agree with, is the posture, bend from the hips, though I don't think that is that revolutionary. I also agree that the left scapula should adduct in the BS and abduct in the DS and the opposite side opposite and not lift, that is not that ground-breaking either.

She also said the golf swing is spine supportive which is correct, it is like walking, its not bad for your back at all.

And I think she advocates the left arm not moving, which is also correct, and that could be news to some, as a lot of people love to move their left arm.


But she made numerous rediculously absurd statements and flat out ignorant lies (not really a lie, since it is ignorance from knowing the truth rather than purposefull deception) that the body can't do this or this happens. And the body can't do this. If I was at that seminar I would so call her out and show her these "impossibilities" right then and there and watch here get laughed off the stage. Her teaching of the traditional swing I don't care, I am not talking about swing differences or techniques, I am talkning about untruths of biomechanics that I would not stand for.

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

hi
if you take the top 100 pro golfers you will find the have diffrent swing tempo's. some swing at a fast 21/7 swing rate. some at 24/8 and some 27/9 and even some at 30/10.
this is the timing of the frame rate in the backswing against the down swing but all top pros have a 3/1 swing tempo.
if you then watch pros hit a bad shot and you then look at the frame rate of the swing you offten find that the swing rate changes and say Tiger on the tee would normaly swing at 24/8 you will find he had a quicker back swing of say a 22/8 and more often than not is the timing of the swing that is at fault of the bad shot the timing of his swing tempo.
it seems losing your timing brings out mistakes in your swing. if you can swing at a rate of 30/10 then you will hit better shots than if you swing at the faster rate of 24/8 but somne of the swing's are more a 22/8.
i have read and used "tour tempo" for many years and i have a natural slower swing that i can repeat over and over i swing with a 27/9 swing rate but still have a swing speed of 112mph with my driver. i don't have timing problems with my hands and wrists as i have no wrist roll during impact so it only the timing of the swing that i'm working with.
i know with Brian has to have much better eye/hand
timing in his swing and with my push type shot and holding my hand relese off till after impact has diffrent timing issues.
once you find your best tempo for swing you find that timing is not so much the issue as keeping the right tempo.
with the right tempo you should feel relaxed and not forcing it. i think Tiger offen tries to force it with the driver and as a result his tempo goes off and his drives end up in the rough.
cheers
Bill

[LowPost42]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

I will comment on the timing for now...

I still don't believe there is any timing involved, in my swing anyway. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know why you would put timing in your swing, it is happening at 100 some mph, why would you want to put a timing element in there?

I do think it is sequencial and I can see what people call timing but is more a technique. Something simple as running could be said that timing is involved. If you plant your left foot and push off and don't bring your right foot up in enough time, you will hit your face on the ground.... but is that really timing? I don't consider it so, it s technique, you know that when your left side pushes your right side needs to move up. Does a basketball player release the ball when .3 seconds pass from the time they started shooting? No, they release when it feels right. A golfer knows there hand needs to be just like it was at adress to hit it straight, so their brain tells it to be at this rotational axis facing this direction when it hits this point in space.

That is not timing IMO, that is what is know as proprioceptive sensory sytem. You have 3 sensory systems, visual which makes up 80% of your sensors, your vistibular, which is your otolith organs and semi-circular canals (inner ear) and your proprioceptive. It is not very well know how this works, it just does, its quite mysterious. When you close your eyes and are told to touch your nose, you can get within 3mm of your the tip of your nose (when sober). You didn't time that you need to move your hand up for .2 seconds and left for .1 ect. You just do it, just like in golf, you just get there. Now people can make it harder to get there when they block their natural boimechanical functions and adding tension. The reason they add tension is in an attempt to speed up the club, so there is some logic to it, but I don't think it throws your timing off, merely your body's 'flow'.


I never heard of Alison Thietje in my life. I am watching some youtube videos on her. Some things she says are dead on, and others are so close minded and "x-factor" science it kills me. But I will watch a few more videos before coming to a consenses. But so far I can prove a ton of things wrong as she is can't seem to see the forest through the trees.



That is quite a statement there, I don't want to bash it yet... Do you have any video's of her? What is her swing speed? How consistant is she? If she has ever had a swing speed of 165mph and will she be able to drive it 300yds at the age of 70, I would even give her 130mph and 300yds now and 250 at age 70 since she is a small framed women. If not, then that statement is clearly false. Those are just simple test to weed out the non-sense, if you met or were close to that criteria, then we could hook you up to an electromiogram and then we could see how much energy you exerted and how much club head speed came from it, but that is so unnessisary since she doens't even come close to that. If she really said that about herself, she truly is ignorant.

I watched some youtube seminars and I see what she is about now. She is extremly simplistic, and is correct in what she teaches, which is a traditional swing, and I have no problem with that.

What I agree with, is the posture, bend from the hips, though I don't think that is that revolutionary. I also agree that the left scapula should adduct in the BS and abduct in the DS and the opposite side opposite and not lift, that is not that ground-breaking either.

She also said the golf swing is spine supportive which is correct, it is like walking, its not bad for your back at all.

And I think she advocates the left arm not moving, which is also correct, and that could be news to some, as a lot of people love to move their left arm.


But she made numerous rediculously absurd statements and flat out ignorant lies (not really a lie, since it is ignorance from knowing the truth rather than purposefull deception) that the body can't do this or this happens. And the body can't do this. If I was at that seminar I would so call her out and show her these "impossibilities" right then and there and watch here get laughed off the stage. Her teaching of the traditional swing I don't care, I am not talking about swing differences or techniques, I am talkning about untruths of biomechanics that I would not stand for.

There we go - much better stated and I will agree with what you posted; that we don't move in terms of tenths of seconds but rather using proprioception. It's proprioception that snaps a clubface shut that's lagging open, that has you stand up out of your swing when you've increased your spine angle or had your arms seperate from your body, that creates a thrust movement if your balance shifts in the wrong direction.

As for Alison, she's a physio-kinetic expert who's steeped in physical therapy and moving in a non-injurious method; not golf. She's not a golf instructor by any means - her focus is on the correct movement of the body to eliminate injury. So when she says a body can't move like this; it's usually inferred that it can't move like that without increasing the risk of injury.

What I'm always interested in is, if this is the "injury-free" method, is there enough of a gain to use a 'potential for injury' method? I haven't had a chance to ask Alison, and I'm sure it'd need some serious study.

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

hi lowpost
i found it intresting you talking about Alison and the way for an injury-free way to swing a golf club.
i damaged my sping about 9 years ago and could not walk more than a few feet for about a year and never though i would golf again.
i found about three years later that using my draw swing where i had more hip turn and swung more like i was in a barrle and my wrist rolled through impact would have back spasms in less than two holes of golf.
i went back to my Trevino open stance fade system and found i could play a full round of golf with very little back pain and i also had to swing at about 90% instead of the 99% i had with the draw type swing.
i also remember that Trevino was hit by lightning in 1975 and had two of his vertabra welded together but still played a lot of golf after that and still won on tour.
it seems that swinging with an open stance puts less presure on the lower spine that playing a draw with a closed stance.
maybe you could ask Alison if there is any reason for this.
cheers
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

I will comment on the timing for now...

I still don't believe there is any timing involved, in my swing anyway. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know why you would put timing in your swing, it is happening at 100 some mph, why would you want to put a timing element in there?
.

The only thing in a golf swing that travels at 100 mph is the clubhead, your body can only rotate at a fairly slow speed, your arms need to keep in sync with your torso and the wrists hinge amplifies the rotational speed into the club. If you do not maintain good timing and tempo then you will not be able to consistently square the clubface or make solid ball impact.

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Hi Brian
i think what keeps my swing in sync if my right elbo dropping infront of my right hip before my hips start to turn. it like your hips drive your right elbow and again i dont have timing problems with my club face moving from open to square to closed. with me its open to square so not so much to go out of sync.
i do think the right elbow dropping to your side then the hip turn stops a lot of timing errors.
i think that bigest thing to throw your timing off is swing to fast and to hard and trying to knock the skin of the ball.
cheers
Bill

[lgskywalker37]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Brian,

that video prooved my point, 3:21, just free things up. He showed in this video that if you move the arms incorrectly, your will slice or hook, that is not timing, that is biomechanical placement, or proprioceptive. If the hips move ahead of the shoulders, that is a sequecial issue, I can see how that can be seen as timing possibly, but that is the extent of it.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagee with this one, because I am not even slightly open minded to timing on this, I see this as no timing at all is a fact.

LowPost42,

After seeing what bill said, that allison has created a injury free swing, now that is something I could agree with, but injury free doesn't meean biomechanicly best.


Bill,

There are a ton of things you could have unknowingly changed when you opening your stance that could have helped your back. Your weight would have gone more centered, possibly it eliminated how you used to have your spine. If you had before and after pics I could take a stab at it, though I am no expert or doctor, I have basic an understanding of why people hurt their backs in the swing.


"my swing in sync if my right elbo dropping infront of my right hip before my hips start to turn" that is sequencial, your elbow must drop infront, before the hips start, timing is moving the elbow at a certain speed so that .2 seconds later the hips can start to fire and I'm sorry, but nobody is that good. You must put things into proper sequence, I could get on board with that statement, but not timing. I think we agree, we just have different defination of what timing is.

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Brian,

that video prooved my point, 3:21, just free things up. He showed in this video that if you move the arms incorrectly, your will slice or hook, that is not timing, that is biomechanical placement, or proprioceptive. If the hips move ahead of the shoulders, that is a sequecial issue, I can see how that can be seen as timing possibly, but that is the extent of it.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagee with this one, because I am not even slightly open minded to timing on this, I see this as no timing at all is a fact.

LowPost42,

After seeing what bill said, that allison has created a injury free swing, now that is something I could agree with, but injury free doesn't meean biomechanicly best.


Bill,

There are a ton of things you could have unknowingly changed when you opening your stance that could have helped your back. Your weight would have gone more centered, possibly it eliminated how you used to have your spine. If you had before and after pics I could take a stab at it, though I am no expert or doctor, I have basic an understanding of why people hurt their backs in the swing.


"my swing in sync if my right elbo dropping infront of my right hip before my hips start to turn" that is sequencial, your elbow must drop infront, before the hips start, timing is moving the elbow at a certain speed so that .2 seconds later the hips can start to fire and I'm sorry, but nobody is that good. You must put things into proper sequence, I could get on board with that statement, but not timing. I think we agree, we just have different defination of what timing is.

Hi
thanks for your reply but i don't have picture of me when i played mostly a draw. i changed to a draw about 20 years ago after a pro and friend (David Robertson) got me to change from my Trevino swing to more like a Greg Norman swing. i did get a good 20 yards more distance and did get down to 4 handicap.
when i tried to go back to this swing after a 3 year lay off i could not play more than a couple of holes before really bad pain and spasms, it was caused my my discs rubbing and inflaming giving me back pain and also it was press on my spineal collum giving me the spasms. it was due to wear and tear and me having curvture of the spine. somthing i did not have before my fall of my moter bike.
i went back to the open stance and it took me a few months to get my swing back but i was playing of 16 three years ago and now playing of 10.
i dont play as often or put anything like the work in i use to.
the fear of damaging my back is always there in the back of my mind but i'm greatful i can play at all.
i agree that timing is sometimes mixed up with tempo and with my playing at a certin tempo helps my body find the right timing for all the parts to come together. i agree that i'm not thinking of timing with my elbow and hip and its more as you say "sequence" as a result of the bodys own tempo.
cheers
Bill

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Brian,

that video prooved my point, 3:21, just free things up. He showed in this video that if you move the arms incorrectly, your will slice or hook, that is not timing, that is biomechanical placement, or proprioceptive. If the hips move ahead of the shoulders, that is a sequecial issue, I can see how that can be seen as timing possibly, but that is the extent of it.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagree with this one, because I am not even slightly open minded to timing on this, I see this as no timing at all is a fact.

If we step back one do you agree that we dont need to control timing at 100 mph but at the speed of our body rotation?

I posted a video earlier on timing and keeping the arms and body synchronised. Do you disagree with the premise that the connection of the arms and body are important in a good golf swing?

You are correct in that the last video shows how the wrists will square the clubface if they are kept loose but you must also see from the video that the rotation must not be hurried and the long triangle must be kept intact and in front of the chest.

If you still disagree with these things then we will have to agree to disagree.

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

If we step back one do you agree that we dont need to control timing at 100 mph but at the speed of our body rotation?

I posted a video earlier on timing and keeping the arms and body synchronised. Do you disagree with the premise that the connection of the arms and body are important in a good golf swing?

You are correct in that the last video shows how the wrists will square the clubface if they are kept loose but you must also see from the video that the rotation must not be hurried and the long triangle must be kept intact and in front of the chest.

If you still disagree with these things then we will have to agree to disagree.

Fred couples, John Daly and jim furyk play quite well. They dont keep the long triangle in front of the chest. Furyk has one of the most 'club behind body' swings in the world, yet he is able to square the clubface up to a resoanable standard (number 2 in the world i think?).

i believe control of path and face and strike are more important than anything. as regards to timing? i think we are stuck on semantics here, looks like one calls it proprioceptive sequencing (i agree) other calls it timing, but basically mean the same thing in your minds, but not in the definitive sense. i think you should agree to agree

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Fred couples, John Daly and jim furyk play quite well. They dont keep the long triangle in front of the chest. Furyk has one of the most 'club behind body' swings in the world, yet he is able to square the clubface up to a resoanable standard (number 2 in the world i think?).

Are you suggesting they collapse their arms at impact? No, they keep their elbows close together and arms in front of their chests, what they do at the top of the backswing is what you refer to and is not the subject under discussion. Furyk may have an unconventional backswing but into impact he has a classic swing.