One Plane vs Two Plane swing

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Are you suggesting they collapse their arms at impact? No, they keep their elbows close together and arms in front of their chests, what they do at the top of the backswing is what you refer to and is not the subject under discussion. Furyk may have an unconventional backswing but into impact he has a classic swing.

what i am refering too is the top of swing yes, but in all cases their hips are far more rotated through impact than their shoulders and upper body is well out of synchronisation with lower body in terms of 'coming through together' - like tiger works on.

Westwood has a pretty split arm impact position too.

I agree that rythm and tempo should remain pretty constant for ultimate conistency, but i dont think we are discussing that here either. but that is my own version of timing

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

fre couples 47 second mark right elbow is lagging way behind hips and also behind the shoulders, at impact sternum if facing at least 2 feet in front of the ball and i wouldnt say arms are bound together until at least after impact.

furyk 20 second mark - his right elbow is sooo far behind his chest here just pre impact. in the hoganesque sense (which is what i assume you are referring to as you have used this before) this move by furyk is detrimental to 'timing'. Again, furyk does ok for himself though. at impact i dont think many gymmasts could get the club that far behind them.

Daly 38 secnds, impact = club is lagging way behind the chest at this point

sure, i like the feeling of keeping the arms in front of the chest, feels very controlled and synchronised, but does it help performance - lets see a double blind test with control groups before we give it to everyone. What worked for hogan will mess up a hell of a lot of other players

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

what i am refferring too is the top of swing yes, but in all cases their hips are far more rotated through impact than their shoulders and upper body is well out of synchronisation with lower body in terms of 'coming through together' - like tiger works on.

Westwood has a pretty split arm impact position too.

I agree that rythm and tempo should remain pretty constant for ultimate conistency, but i dont think we are discussing that here either. but that is my own version of timing

Good timing is not what you suggest here. The hips have to turn through with good timing, the relationship of the arms and chest must stay connected though. Here is the video I posted earlier:

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

fre couples 47 second mark right elbow is lagging way behind hips and also behind the shoulders, at impact sternum if facing at least 2 feet in front of the ball and i wouldnt say arms are bound together until at least after impact.

furyk 20 second mark - his right elbow is sooo far behind his chest here just pre impact. in the hoganesque sense (which is what i assume you are referring to as you have used this before) this move by furyk is detrimental to 'timing'. Again, furyk does ok for himself though. at impact i dont think many gymmasts could get the club that far behind them.

Daly 38 secnds, impact = club is lagging way behind the chest at this point

sure, i like the feeling of keeping the arms in front of the chest, feels very controlled and synchronised, but does it help performance - lets see a double blind test with control groups before we give it to everyone. What worked for hogan will mess up a hell of a lot of other players

All three of those videos show them with their arms in front of their chests and their elbows close together through impact. Please dont confuse bend in the right elbow just prior to impact with breakdown of the triangle, the triangle remains true as long as the elbows dont splay. Also the club staying behind the body is late wrist hinge which again is absolutely correct and not related to the issue.

Tiger in his book 'Golf My Way' states clearly how he keeps his arms infront of his chest. Faldo worked hard on the connection of arms and chest as did Veejay and many others. You are correct that Hogan taught us in his classic book 'Five Lessons' that the elbows must stay close together through the swing.

[lgskywalker37]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

All three of those videos show them with their arms in front of their chests and their elbows close together through impact.

right, you are. But here is the part that confused me for the LONGEST time and I think confuses others.

What about the top of the BS, is the left arm still in front of the chest? my answer is yes and no. It appears to be in front of the chest due to the body rotating around. Most amateurs see this and think they need to move thier left arm to get it across the body when you actually turn your body and it creates this illusion. I will give that to allison as she did say this as well.

This is how people injure thier left shoulder in golf they are rotating within the ball and socket joint and it was not made for that kind of movement nor is that movement nessisary.

Your left arm doens't move in the golf swing, it is the attached end of the cirlce, making the radius of a circle creating centrifigal force. Something else that Allison was correct on. The right arm is the free arm you can add as little or as much juice you want to that clubhead from the get go with the right arm.

And if you don't move your left arm, it will always be in front of your chest at impact. So yes brian, I think connection is very important or as I like to call it attachment, your left arm has to be attached to the handle of the shaft and must not move if you want centrifigal force. If you move that left arm, then you are adding a linear force in there and breaking down your circle.

I don't blame you if this makes no sense, as I said it took me years to understand it myself. And this is one swing theory.


If you move your left arm at all, I consider it to be a hit and you have 2 detached ends now. left arm pulling, right arm pushing though the ball. Some amatuers take on this hitting, and then weaken the swing even more, only choose one method, they pull with their left only or push with their right only. They wonder why they can't even hit it 250 when only using 50% of avaliable hitting power.

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

i agree that tiger and flado et al work on this. its benefits are said to keep the club from dropping under plane and being in to out through impact, although this is debateable whether it works - look at tigers record. With three differenrent swings, all progressively more 'in front of his body' his faults are still block and hooks, an in to out path.

I think ur being a lbit too literal with hands in front of the body. In traditional sense this would mean that through most of the swing and especially impact a laser projected from the sternum would link up with the hands. A more lenient version of this is an image of two 2 by 4's coming out from each shoulder and the hands staying in that area -(i think trevino coined it). The three guys above blatantly do not stay within these margins. you can see clearly by furyks right elbow at impact that this is not the case.

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

right, you are. But here is the part that confused me for the LONGEST time and I think confuses others.

What about the top of the BS, is the left arm still in front of the chest? my answer is yes and no. It appears to be in front of the chest due to the body rotating around. Most amateurs see this and think they need to move thier left arm to get it across the body when you actually turn your body and it creates this illusion. I will give that to allison as she did say this as well.

This is how people injure thier left shoulder in golf they are rotating within the ball and socket joint and it was not made for that kind of movement nor is that movement nessisary.

Your left arm doens't move in the golf swing, it is the attached end of the cirlce, making the radius of a circle creating centrifigal force. Something else that Allison was correct on. The right arm is the free arm you can add as little or as much juice you want to that clubhead from the get go with the right arm.

And if you don't move your left arm, it will always be in front of your chest at impact. So yes brian, I think connection is very important or as I like to call it attachment, your left arm has to be attached to the handle of the shaft and must not move if you want centrifigal force. If you move that left arm, then you are adding a linear force in there and breaking down your circle.

I don't blame you if this makes no sense, as I said it took me years to understand it myself.

Yes, that's it, spot on. Another way to consider this is that when your shoulder turn stops (no matter how big it is) your arms must also stop turning.

If someone questions this with me I ask them to do the drill where you address the ball, pick the club up over your right shoulder, turn your body and shoulders fully to the right then push your left arm straight out. You should now be in a perfect position at the top of the backswing.

[BrianW]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

i agree that tiger and flado et al work on this. its benefits are said to keep the club from dropping under plane and being in to out through impact, although this is debateable whether it works - look at tigers record. With three differenrent swings, all progressively more 'in front of his body' his faults are still block and hooks, an in to out path.

I think ur being a lbit too literal with hands in front of the body. In traditional sense this would mean that through most of the swing and especially impact a laser projected from the sternum would link up with the hands. A more lenient version of this is an image of two 2 by 4's coming out from each shoulder and the hands staying in that area -(i think trevino coined it). The three guys above blatantly do not stay within these margins. you can see clearly by furyks right elbow at impact that this is not the case.

When I say in front of the chest thats exactly what I mean, not exactly central.

Please dont confuse this with the right elbow in the downswing, it may be bent as it drops but it does not lock into the side, it must progressively straighten and move in front of the body so that it can push through and straighten the arm in the release, this will keep the elbows together and maintain the narrow triangle.

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

right, you are. But here is the part that confused me for the LONGEST time and I think confuses others.

What about the top of the BS, is the left arm still in front of the chest? my answer is yes and no. It appears to be in front of the chest due to the body rotating around. Most amateurs see this and think they need to move thier left arm to get it across the body when you actually turn your body and it creates this illusion. I will give that to allison as she did say this as well.

This is how people injure thier left shoulder in golf they are rotating within the ball and socket joint and it was not made for that kind of movement nor is that movement nessisary.

Your left arm doens't move in the golf swing, it is the attached end of the cirlce, making the radius of a circle creating centrifigal force. Something else that Allison was correct on. The right arm is the free arm you can add as little or as much juice you want to that clubhead from the get go with the right arm.

And if you don't move your left arm, it will always be in front of your chest at impact. So yes brian, I think connection is very important or as I like to call it attachment, your left arm has to be attached to the handle of the shaft and must not move if you want centrifigal force. If you move that left arm, then you are adding a linear force in there and breaking down your circle.

I don't blame you if this makes no sense, as I said it took me years to understand it myself. And this is one swing theory.


If you move your left arm at all, I consider it to be a hit and you have 2 detached ends now. left arm pulling, right arm pushing though the ball. Some amatuers take on this hitting, and then weaken the swing even more, only choose one method, they pull with their left only or push with their right only. They wonder why they can't even hit it 250 when only using 50% of avaliable hitting power.

The left arm moves at least up and down in the swing (imagine a rail rom belly button to sternum to which the hands can slide up and down. Side to side movement is minimal but its still there. I have done extensive work on K-vest and other 3 and 6 dof systems and this is always the case. try the exercise listed (i think in this thread) of

• start in your set up
• move the hands straight up so they are level with your right shoulder
• hinge the wrists

now if you turn your body 90 degrees you are in a traditional top of the backswing position. so the left arm has to move to some degree. Its called sepearation and we have to balance seperaion and connectedness. a poweful player like iger can get away with a more connected swing as he has such a powerful body rotation. but average jo aint gonna hit it anywhere without a little bit of arm swing. you are basically cutting a whole lever away.

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

p.s when cochran and stobbs analysed the muscle elecromyograph of a professional golfer during a swing, one of the major musces involved in the downswing was the left rhomboid and left posterior deltoid. These muscles are only activated for the purposes of moving the left arm across the chest and down - think a combination of moving the left hand from level with the right shoulder down to the left hip.

[keiko]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

1 or 2 plane swing theory is irrevelant to playing good golf but it has made hardy and others a bunch of money.
Don't buy the snakeoil.

I watched Jim Hardy's video about The Plane Truth and decided I wanted to be a one planer, so I've been working on that for a couple weeks. Actually, when I get it right it seems to work great, especially for my irons. I experimented briefly with Jim hardy's description of two plane and that just seems much less predictable to me. I dunno. Now on the driver, I'm having a really hard time getting good shots with one plane.

And I am sure I have lost some distance. I can't get the shaft back to parallel in a true one plane swing unless I over-turn my hips too far. When I do more of a two plane swing, I hit the ball a lot further, but just seems less predictable and repeatable to me. I dunno.

What are your thoughts on comparing these two approaches?

[rogue]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

1 or 2 plane swing theory is irrevelant to playing good golf but it has made hardy and others a bunch of money.
Don't buy the snakeoil.

well said keiko

[bill reed]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

1 or 2 plane swing theory is irrevelant to playing good golf but it has made hardy and others a bunch of money.
Don't buy the snakeoil.

hi Keiko
i have read Hardys book the plane truth and found it very heplful.
i don't agree with every word in his book but its a good read and a lot of it makes sense to me.
there is two diffrent swings, the flat swing or the one plane, and the high swing where your arms are on a diffrent plane to your shoulders.
i don't see how this is "snakoil" i sure there are some parts of his book you agree on. i have not read it will make you a par golfer or it will take 8 shots of your score like some books do.
i think your being a bit hard on the book.
cheers
Bill

[lgskywalker37]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Yes, that's it, spot on. Another way to consider this is that when your shoulder turn stops (no matter how big it is) your arms must also stop turning.

If someone questions this with me I ask them to do the drill where you address the ball, pick the club up over your right shoulder, turn your body and shoulders fully to the right then push your left arm straight out. You should now be in a perfect position at the top of the backswing.

This drill only works if you know what you are doing, and if you know what you are doing, why do you need a drill? For me anyway, I have tried this many times throughout my jouney, and it lead to my left arm being in the position of it moving to get up there, when I straightened it.

It is confusing to say it doesn't move, as it does through space, just not in relation to where it was at adress.

p.s when cochran and stobbs analysed the muscle elecromyograph of a professional golfer during a swing, one of the major musces involved in the downswing was the left rhomboid and left posterior deltoid. These muscles are only activated for the purposes of moving the left arm across the chest and down - think a combination of moving the left hand from level with the right shoulder down to the left hip.

aye, but remember the study was done on a specific perosn's swing model. Even though I love seeing swings hooked up to an EMG, you have to remember that person's swing might not have been the most efficient swing. But I have no arguments here that this is what happened, that is why I love EMG's you can't argue the truth. Do you know who was hooked up? My guess would be a 2-planer from your description.

The left arm moves at least up and down in the swing (imagine a rail rom belly button to sternum to which the hands can slide up and down.

Nope, I thought this too for a long time in trying to understand it. Maybe for a two planer swinger or a hitter it does, but for a one plane swinger, it does not move up or down or left or right with relationship to the the body. If you move up, you just bent your spoke and you are off plane, if you move side to side you lost your radius and your centrifigal force is gone.

Remerber I am talking austinology here, not traditional golf. The only muscle in his EMG on the left side of the torso is the quadratis lumborum.

If this rail was run there, why would I use it, I want to hit at the ball, why would I go up and down from there? I am on plane, why would I move off of it? That is why I never understood the 2-planers.


Hopefully you this will make sense to you one day, again, I don't blame you for not understanding it, it is quite a thing to wrap your head around.

[keiko]

Re: One Plane vs Two Plane swing

Bill, you are right, I am being tough on him because he and some others pretend unless you use their methods you are doomed to be a hacker or that one cannot play good golf without knowing whether they are 1, 2, or hybrid swingers.
You and I know that is hogwash and just don't want newbies to be taken in and change their swings to try to match hardy's instructions.
On tour, there are numerous types of swings and frankly all of them get the job done; how many pro's care whether they are 1 or 2 or hybrid swingers or are willing to change, almost none yet they still make millions even when they don't win.
My point is folks should not take one person's swing theory and use it to change what might already be a good swing that just needs some tweaking.

hi Keiko
i have read Hardys book the plane truth and found it very heplful.
i don't agree with every word in his book but its a good read and a lot of it makes sense to me.
there is two diffrent swings, the flat swing or the one plane, and the high swing where your arms are on a diffrent plane to your shoulders.
i don't see how this is "snakoil" i sure there are some parts of his book you agree on. i have not read it will make you a par golfer or it will take 8 shots of your score like some books do.
i think your being a bit hard on the book.
cheers
Bill