How-To "Backspin on chips"

[bill reed]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Bully
when the club face of any club from the driver to the wedge comes into the ball it always hits the ball below the equator. with a drive its just under the equator of the ball but with a wedge it more that half way below the equator due to the loft of the face of the club.
with the impact being below the center of the ball the ball has to spin back clock-wise. even a putter had a couple of degrees of loft.
the wedges and shot irons have bigger faces so the ball can slid up the face. with the less lofted clubs there is less backspin and less ball movement up the club face so the make the club face smaller.
you can still get dimples clubs and they apply just as much spin as the grooved type of clubs but there not as popular as the don't remove moisture and grass as well as the square grooved clubs faces of today.
cheers
bill

[Bully306]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Hi Bill, not that any of it really matters to anyone this side of a nobel prize for physics, but unless you make contact with the ball at the exact same time as you do the ground, I just don't see how the initial movement of the ball (however miniscule) is not downwards.

You said youself that , say a wedge, hits the ball first, a quarter of the way up. This initiates the backspin that accelerates as it moves up the clubface.

This initial backspin is imparted from a downward stroke and the backspin itself starts downwards to my mind.

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Hi Bill, not that any of it really matters to anyone this side of a nobel prize for physics, but unless you make contact with the ball at the exact same time as you do the ground, I just don't see how the initial movement of the ball (however miniscule) is not downwards.

You said youself that , say a wedge, hits the ball first, a quarter of the way up. This initiates the backspin that accelerates as it moves up the clubface.

This initial backspin is imparted from a downward stroke and the backspin itself starts downwards to my mind.

Bully,

It happens like this:

1. In the first microsecond of impact, we have the irresistable force meeting the immovable object. The ball has to react somehow to the momentum of the clubhead, and the least-energy way it can react is by moving up the lofted clubface. Initially it slides up the clubface, because there isn't enough friction yet between clubface and ball. But all that is about to change very quickly.
2. The ball cannot acclerate to an upwards velocity in no time at all; that would require infinite acceleration, which requires infinite force. So it can't get completely out of the way of the clubhead just by sliding upwards. It begins to compress on the clubface, which creates a force between the clubface and the ball. If you don't think this is a large force, just try to compress a golf ball by 30% of its diameter using your fingers. Not even close! OK, use a vise; it's still very hard to apply that much compression force. Remember, this is a force that averages almost 2000 pounds during impact, and can easily peak around 3000 pounds. This force of compression does two important things:
   • It begins to accelerate the ball with a horizontal component, not just the vertical motion up the clubface.
   • It creates a lot of friction between ball and clubface. So, instead of sliding up the clubface, the ball begins to roll instead.
3. The ball continues accelerating upwards (due to the loft) and horizontally (due to the compressive force). The sliding has turned completely into roll, so the upwards acceleration increases the speed of roll. At some point, the momentum absorbed from the clubhead through acceleration has the ball moving faster than the clubhead. In other words, the elastic rebound of the ball's acceleration allows the ball to release from the clubhead. At this instant, its launch conditions are determined

[Seattlepop]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Hi Bill, not that any of it really matters to anyone this side of a nobel prize for physics, but unless you make contact with the ball at the exact same time as you do the ground, I just don't see how the initial movement of the ball (however miniscule) is not downwards.

You said youself that , say a wedge, hits the ball first, a quarter of the way up. This initiates the backspin that accelerates as it moves up the clubface.

This initial backspin is imparted from a downward stroke and the backspin itself starts downwards to my mind.

Its probably no different than putting backspin on a ping-pong ball or a tennis ball. You strike down, but the paddle/racket face is slanted back to the degree that you want the shot to rise. I can see that AT THE NANO-MOMENT OF FIRST TOUCH, it might make some sense that the balls would be moved downward until the energy potential of the slanted, moving club/racket face and ball compression re-direct the ball to its upward flight. However, because the club is moving across as well as downward, and given the slant of the respective club face, I don't see how there is any real downward-directed potential at all.

Or do tennis balls hit with back-spin start downward and then miraculously change direction over the net?

And for those who can't separate the swing instruction from the actual results, it's AS IF you were swinging to trap the ball or hit the ball into the ground. AS IF, got it? Two separate topics in this thread I do believe.

Sorry for catching up late in this thread, but it is pretty interesting reading.

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

I can understand that thinking of trapping the ball into the turf is not such a bad thing but actually doing it is impossible. I have offered to eat my driver headcover if anyone can show me conclusively it happening.

[Bully306]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

I can see that AT THE NANO-MOMENT OF FIRST TOUCH, it might make some sense that the balls would be moved downward until the energy potential of the slanted, moving club/racket face and ball compression re-direct the ball to its upward flight. .

That'll do for me mate!!

Seriously though it's not that important and after the couple of beers I've had, my shocking putting performance is taking presidence........

[bill reed]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi
if the ball does move down first then will that not mean the ball moved in two directions. anti-clockwise and down and forward a fraction and then clockwise and back and up the club face.
i can see the ball at impact reacting by climbing the angled face but not that the ball would move down as the resistance of the ball against the club face would always cause it to move up and not down even for a millisecond.
if you could meet the middle of the ball or the top half the i would think it would be possible but in golf you only ever hit below the equator and hitting below the middle will always result in the ball going up.
its like football you leg swings back and through and if you kick below the center of the ball the ball goes up the more below the middle the higher up the ball goes.
kick near to the middle and the ball stays low.
cheers
bill

[Spiffo]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWzpKfS5dNs

Lee Trevino is a legend! My fav player when I was a lad!

[GreeBoman]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Hey Brian, one think I would point out is that in those 3 images the shaft of the club is vertical, isnt the grip supposed to be ahead of the clubhead (i.e. leaning forward)

Also, to the OP, you wont get much spin/stop on wet greens as the ball is not able to grip so it skids instead.

Cheers!

[BrianW]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Hey Brian, one think I would point out is that in those 3 images the shaft of the club is vertical, isnt the grip supposed to be ahead of the clubhead (i.e. leaning forward)

Also, to the OP, you wont get much spin/stop on wet greens as the ball is not able to grip so it skids instead.

Cheers!

Hi,

The shaft will only lean forward if you de-loft it, it is really designed to be used upright and to get less or more loft you change the club for one with different loft.

It won't make any difference though, as the ball is contacted under it's equator it is impossible to compress the ball into the ground. try it, lay a ball on a table then take say a pitching wedge and try moving the shaft forward enough to make the loft push down on the ball, you will need to almost have the shaft horizontal.

My headcover still awaits my knife and fork

[bill reed]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Greeboman
your right about the angle of the shaft, if you have say a 9 iron with the sole flat the the shaft does lie forward and more so with a wedge and the shaft works it back to almost straight up in a one iron.
but the loft of the face still looks like the pictures Brian sent in.
her is my 56 wedge and you can see how far the shaft leaned forward to get the sole flat.
cheers
bill

[Bogeygolfer19]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Hi,
I find that I can achieve decent backspin especially with my 56 degree vokey spin milled wedge.I play the ball back in my stance and then open my stance. I then attack the ball on a slightly steeper angle imagining that I want the leading edge to slip under the ball nipping it in order for the ball to roll up the grooves. I never release the club, it is important to keep the face open through to the finish with the face pointing up at the sky.The difficulty is in obtaining a clean strike.I can make the ball stop dead and sometimes it spins back a couple of feet depending on the conditions however I only want it to check and stop.I have never been able to get the ball to Zip back 6 to 12 feet like the pros. It would be nice to be able to do that just for show in practice. Unfortunately I am not talented enough to do that.
Best wishes Bogeygolfer.

[Bogeygolfer19]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Sorry above reply was for the other thread on backspin when pitching.
For chipping I use mainly 5 /7 and 9 iron. I play the ball slightly back in my stance and point the shaft for a right handed golfer towards my left hip with my weight on the left side.I then chop down on the ball with a low follow through and the clubhead just passes my left foot. This imparts just enough spin to allow for a slight check and the ball then runs out.Carry one third ,rolls out two thirds.
A good tip which I learn't from a fellow golfer was to practice three swings. 7,8 and 9 o'clock backswing with each iron and chart the carry distance.This has helped my shortgame improve.

Bogeygolfer.

[Mox]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

Hi,

The shaft will only lean forward if you de-loft it, it is really designed to be used upright and to get less or more loft you change the club for one with different loft.

It won't make any difference though, as the ball is contacted under it's equator it is impossible to compress the ball into the ground. try it, lay a ball on a table then take say a pitching wedge and try moving the shaft forward enough to make the loft push down on the ball, you will need to almost have the shaft horizontal.

My headcover still awaits my knife and fork

You simply do not get it.

Angle of clubhead is irellevant. point of impact on the ball is irellevant. only thing relevant is the vector of the force applied from clubhead to ball, and since the clubhead moves down and forward, the vector WILL point down and forward.

That will trap the ball between clubhead and ground.

I'm not going into this discussion again, and you will never accept any evidence based on maths or physics anyway, so never mind that headcover talk!

[bill reed]

Re: How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Max
what i don't get is how you get that down force you talk about if you always make contact below the equator of the ball.
what you say is right if the club face was square and no loft then the contact would be on the center of the ball and the force as you said would be down.
but you never make contact at the middle of the ball it aways below and with a club face that it angled back and that hits the ball upwards.
if you look at some of the charts with loft and distance and hight of the flight the club hits the ball and you were to put a nail through the club face then that would show you the angle the ball leave the club face.
its a tip some pros use when hitting over a tree the imagine a nail through the club to give then the impression of the angle of the the angle the ball leaves the face and if it will got high enough to clear the tree.
what were doing in golf it hitting below the middle of the golf ball with a wedged shaped club and you cant put downward force on the ball if you hit below the equator.
cheers
bill