Are 4 magic moves magic?

[kbp]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

IMO, theses are a few reasons the early wrist break "works" for some people.

It provides a wrist angle to release. Some people never actually "set" the wrists fully at the top so they have no angle to release. More speed. Better ball striking because a full, late release brings the clubhead to the ball on a much steeper angle than a "cast" early release. The arc of the clubhead to the ball is on a much tighter radius in the last 90 degrees of approach. A steeper attack makes it less likely to hit fat.

The movements and the club action of backswing mirrors the downswing better. It’s easier to retrace the positions and the movements during the downswing. A traditional swing has the arms and the wrists doing one thing on the way up (hinging when the hands are about halfway to the top) and another on the way down (unhinging when hands are almost at the bottom). The early wrist set backswing is a better mirror image of the down swing.

The early wrist break establishes the plane and the arm/wrist geometry early in the backswing. It is easier to maintain the plane in the backswing because movement of the wrists is finished early. They can’t really contribute to taking the club off plane.

The method also has some elements that may not be advantageous for everyone. IMO, it’s better as a learning tool than as a strictly adhered to method of play, especially for someone who intends to maximize their potential.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

IMO, theses are a few reasons the early wrist break "works" for some people.

It provides a wrist angle to release. Some people never actually "set" the wrists fully at the top so they have no angle to release. More speed. Better ball striking because a full, late release brings the clubhead to the ball on a much steeper angle than a "cast" early release. The arc of the clubhead to the ball is on a much tighter radius in the last 90 degrees of approach. A steeper attack makes it less likely to hit fat.

The movements and the club action of backswing mirrors the downswing better. It’s easier to retrace the positions and the movements during the downswing. A traditional swing as the arms and the wrists doing one thing on the way up (hinging when the hands are about halfway to the top) and another on the way down (unhinging when hands are almost at the bottom). The early wrist set backswing is a better mirror image of the down swing.

The early wrist break establishes the plane and the arm/wrist geometry early in the backswing. It is easier to maintain the plane in the backswing because movement of the wrists is finished early. They can’t really contribute to taking the club off plane.

The method also has some elements that may not be advantageous for everyone. IMO, it’s better as a learning tool than as a strictly adhered to method of play, especially for someone who intends to maximize their potential.

Hi kbp,

You have described why it works extremely well, at least that's the way it works for me. Well done.

In my previous experiences, I always had to work at making a full wrist cock at the top of the swing. Most times. I would get to 80%. I also let go the wrist angles too quickly in the downswing. With this swing, I just cock and it's out of the way, all I have to do is turn back and up and shift the weight, and then shift the weight and turn down and through. As you say the plane and the late release looks after themselves.

At this point in my life, I am not striving for any more potential. I want simplicity, a swing which is consistent, and which is easy on my body. This swing allows me to enjoy playing, and sharing the day with my partners. I'm done with the swings which require physical effort and hard hitting.

jambalaya, I really don't feel that the early break needs a lot of conscious effort. I have a preshot routine, which incorporates it without thinking, making it automatic. I just set up and make a couple of full waggles replicating the break, while looking down the target line, hover the clubhead behind/above the ball, make the break, and start the shift and turn.

As for the shanking, it may be because this swing facilitates maintaining the lag well into the downswing, you may in fact be holding on too tightly and the face is open, and the hosel is coming into the ball. If you keep the arms and hands soft throughout the backswing and downswing, even though your hands lead the lag, they will release by centrifugl force (automatic, it seems to me, even when I exaggerate taking the lag almost to the ball position).

Ted

[DarthFader]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

My only problem with the method is the early wrsit break. I tried this before and when I hit some really crisp shots thought I was really on to something. For some reason it works for a while and then turns into shanks. I just don't know why. I guess I become so enamored with it that I neglect other parts of the swing or something. The early wrist break is something that has to be very conscious and the more conscious I have to be of something seems the more I screw it up eventually. Has anyone else had this problem?

Jambalaya, I have experienced this as well and addressed the problem by playing the ball further forward in my stance without any forward press of the hands. I think that somehow this swing method moves the bottom of my swing up in my stance, so the old ball position was where my club is still open to and coming from the inside of my swing plane. I hope that I'm making sense.

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Jambalaya, I have experienced this as well and addressed the problem by playing the ball further forward in my stance without any forward press of the hands. I think that somehow this swing method moves the bottom of my swing up in my stance, so the old ball position was where my club is still open to and coming from the inside of my swing plane. I hope that I'm making sense.

I have found this to be the case also. Although it usually manifests itself as a low block slice rather than a full blown sh***k. In my case, this shot occurs most often when playing off a thin or poor lie. Also moving the ball forward seems to have helped. There is something to this that warrants discussion. The 4MM method advocates a tight grip which I think blocks a proper release from occuring, I would listed to Rotator and use a light grip. As well, 4MM initiates the downswing with a lateral weight shift which if done improperly or too agressively also promotes a sh***k.

[jambalaya]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Great comments. I know for sure I just never get the full wrist cock at the top and I also know that when I've try the early wrist cock and it works I really like how the shot feels. It seems more natural. I am encouraged.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi JaySpin, jambalaya, Darth,

Thanks to John for the latest. That course in the Dominicans looks wonderful.

I was going to post this a while back, but I lost track of this thread.

I noticed there is another pro out there, who has a noticeable early break of the wrists. He was doing well in a couple of the televised tournaments. A good all round game.

The name is Jeff Klauk. He probably has conditional status on the tour, as he is a recent graduate off the Nationwide, I believe.

I tried to find videos of him, but there are none.

Ted

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Check out this video by Andy Brown where he shows you in detail the first of the four magic moves. Andy also explains the importance of the forward press to ensure the early backward wrist break and shoulder turn are one fluid motion.

Tap here to watch the video

Play well.

Thanks, the forward press is something I have struggled to incorporate into my 4MM swing. Went to the range at lunch today after watching the video and something still isn't clicking. The forward press just throws my timing out of whack and alters the clubface alignment I have established at address.

Without the forward press, my 4MM swing has a slight but noticeable interruption or hitch right after I execute the wrist break. A couple of playing partners have noticed and gleefully call it my Barkley move. It does not seem to affect the functionality of my swing as I have been playing beautifully of late. So I am leaving things alone for now as it's springtime and it's time to golf!

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi JaySpin, jambalaya, Darth,

Thanks to John for the latest. That course in the Dominicans looks wonderful.

I was going to post this a while back, but I lost track of this thread.

I noticed there is another pro out there, who has a noticeable early break of the wrists. He was doing well in a couple of the televised tournaments. A good all round game.

The name is Jeff Klauk. He probably has conditional status on the tour, as he is a recent graduate off the Nationwide, I believe.

I tried to find videos of him, but there are none.

Ted

Ted, You can see him swing here briefly at the 1:00 mark. Thanks for the tip, I'll have to watch for him.

[jambalaya]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Thanks, the forward press is something I have struggled to incorporate into my 4MM swing. Went to the range at lunch today after watching the video and something still isn't clicking. The forward press just throws my timing out of whack and alters the clubface alignment I have established at address.

Without the forward press, my 4MM swing has a slight but noticeable interruption or hitch right after I execute the wrist break. A couple of playing partners have noticed and gleefully call it my Barkley move. It does not seem to affect the functionality of my swing as I have been playing beautifully of late. So I am leaving things alone for now as it's springtime and it's time to golf!

You are describing my problem with the early wrist break exactly. It throws my timing off and introduces little hitches and hesitations in my backswing. I don't care what anybody says, you cannot make this move unconsciously. Nothing naturally makes this move happen because you have to overcome gravity. It has to be your first thought to get your swing going. I guess you have to practice, practice, practice until it actually becomes unconscious but until then some of us will be very inconsistent with it. I know when it is done correctly and you achieve the nice bent bottom wrist and flat top wrist it really gives some pop to the swing. I just don't know if I can make it a natural part of my swing.

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

You are describing my problem with the early wrist break exactly. It throws my timing off and introduces little hitches and hesitations in my backswing. I don't care what anybody says, you cannot make this move unconsciously. Nothing naturally makes this move happen because you have to overcome gravity. It has to be your first thought to get your swing going. I guess you have to practice, practice, practice until it actually becomes unconscious but until then some of us will be very inconsistent with it. I know when it is done correctly and you achieve the nice bent bottom wrist and flat top wrist it really gives some pop to the swing. I just don't know if I can make it a natural part of my swing.

I hear ya. I think it's because book instructs that you use your wrists to bring the club back halfway, then engage an entirely different and larger group of muscles to bring the club back the rest of the way. The pause or hitch occurs at this transition.

You can see in a video here of Ben Curtis on youtube that his swing has no hitch at all. However, the early wrist break is not his initial move from the ball. Curtis clearly initiates the backswing with his arms and shoulders then breaks his wrists very early-almost but not quite immediately. You can also see this in the Golf Digest article mentioned by DarthFader. Not exactly the technique advocated in 4MM. Hope I am making sense.

I have tried this but the results are not as consistent as when I initiate my backswing with the wrist break only. Neither do I get the nice pop on my irons that you describe.

I've decided to live with the hitch,as it does not seem to affect the end result, as long as I take the club up to the top and initiate the downswing with my lower body I still hit the ball well. I am so used to it now, that I hardly notice the hitch and my handicap is dropping like a stone. There are lots of good players that have a slight pause at the top of the backswing, so is a pause midway through the backswing any worse? Barkley of course has his hitch on the downswing and that no good. I'm just telling people I need to stop watching the Haney project.

Maybe that's why you don't see any videos of anyone-even Andy Brown-showing their full swing sequence using the 4MM/Joe Dante method.

[Neil18]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

As pro swings go, Ben Curtis has an ugly one, but it seems to work to a certain extent.

For a cracking example of early wrist break and getting the club moving have a look here:

Mac doesn't do it completely the 4MM way, but my word can he bust a ballon.

[JaySpin]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Neil, Good videos.Again, I observe that the wrist break does not initiate the swing. It all seems to happen at the same time for both these guys.

Perhaps the separation of the 2 different actions (wrist break and hip/shoulder turn) are what makes 4MM easier and simpler to execute for me though.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Neil, Good videos.Again, I observe that the wrist break does not initiate the swing. It all seems to happen at the same time for both these guys.

Perhaps the separation of the 2 different actions (wrist break and hip/shoulder turn) are what makes 4MM easier and simpler to execute for me though.

JaySpin,

Regarding the last statement, that's the same with me. It works for me, because the complete wrist break is out of the way, and I don't have to worry about it. With my conventional swings, I somehow had struggles incorporating it into the backswing motion, early or late, and invariably it was not complete and was disconnected from the actions of my body and shoulder turn.

I believe that Klauk is going to be around for a long time. He has a very good game, and appears to be a tough competitor.

Ted

[DarthFader]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

My 4MM swing has not hitch whatsoever. If I do it's not noticeable. Maybe it's because I have a very quick tempo like Nick Price.

Speaking of pros with an early wrist break, does anyone remember David Frost? I'm not sure there is any video of him out there, but he was a very solid player who started his compact swing with an early wrist break.

[rotator]

Re: Are 4 magic moves magic?

Hi Darth,

I liked Frost's swing. I used to tape a lot of swings for a extended period. I always admired the compactness of his swing. It was solid.

I do think, as with the others mentioned like Curtis, Klauk, O'Grady, Frost also had an early break, but he also started the swing with the body, shoulders and arms, before the break of the wrists.

The more I see the swings of golfers, I notice many of them have early wrist breaks. These early break swings are the antithesis of the swings of Nicklaus, Garcia, Norman (?).

It may be a U.K. influence, or it could be Leadbetter's influence, and/or some connection to Joe Dante's teachings, but to me, Faldo and Rose have medium early breaks, although certainly not to the degree we're talking about with 4MM.

Ted

Ted